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Oral History Transcript — Mrs. Betty Schultz

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Interview with Mrs. Betty Schultz
By Charles Weiner
In Copenhagen (Niels Bohr Institute)
March 26, 1971

open tab View abstract

Betty Schultz; March 26, 1971

ABSTRACT: A review of the first twenty-five years of the Niels Bohr Institute from its establishment in 1921 as the Institute for Theoretical Physics. Funding for its erection and expansion; grants and stipends for guest scientists; daily life; effect of the World Wars; Nazi occupation of the Institute in 1943 after Niels Bohrís escape. A number of photographs are looked at and persons identified.

Transcript

Session I | Session II

Weiner:

Iíll first say that weíre resuming our discussion on Friday the 26th of March, and we had left off yesterday when you were showing me the large photo album of the German occupation, there were signs, I think in Danish, on the doors of various rooms.

Schultz:

Wasnít it in German?

Weiner:

I saw both.

Schultz:

Na, na (I see).

Weiner:

Signs saying ďthese are closed, no admission.Ē

Schultz:

Oh yes. The soldiers dared not come there. It was for the soldiers it was closed. Oh yes. Not for us.

Weiner:

But there was nothing going on in those rooms anyway during those two months. Is this 1943?

Schultz:

l943, 1944. Yes.

Weiner:

So December 7, 1943 until February 2, 1944. And all of that time you were at home. You didnít come here.

Schultz:

No. But I lived here at that time, over there in that building, and Boggilds lived also here in this house and the mechanistic Olsen and one more. We four families lived here. But we moved away, because we were afraid it would be bombed by the Germans or by the saboteurs here. So we moved away, all of us.

Weiner:

Did anyone move into the apartments? Did the Germans move in?

Schultz:

Here in this house, downstairs, it was my office. It became the office of guards of the Germans, here, downstairs. And the next room, the big one, was their dining room, I think and the next also; the two big rooms down there. There the Germans slept and cooked their meals. And there was a kitchen there. They could cook themselves.

Weiner:

But they were just sort of living here, they didnít do anything in the Institute?

Schultz:

Oh, no, no, no, not in the Institute, only taking care of the Institute. Nobody came in. Yes.

Weiner:

They arrested the Institute.

Schultz:

Yes.

Weiner:

That reminds me, were some people put in jail for a short period?

Schultz:

Yes.

Weiner:

Who were they?

Schultz:

[Jorgen] Boggild and the mechanic Carl Olsen, they were taken the first day when they came the first morning. They (the soldiers) came very early in the morning. And they were taken to Vestre fangsel. They asked what I was doing, but as I did not know anything of science or the apparatus, then they did not take me. I was not dangerous for them.

Weiner:

The idea of putting the others in prison was just to keep them from doing any sabotage? Schu1tz: From doing sabotage with the apparatus — yes, it was. Boggild was sitting there I think almost two months, but Olsen only ten days.

Weiner:

Then Boggild was released when the Institute was released, February 2?

Schultz:

Yes. A little before, I think. It was not just that day — A little before.

Weiner:

You mentioned to me when we first met, a couple of years ago — I was looking in the archives for letters about helping scientists from Germany, refugee scientists, and you told then about burning the letters. I wanted to get that story from you — find out when it happened, who did it, what the reasons were and so forth.

Schultz:

It could be dangerous for Professor Bohr to have all these letters from the Jews, and therefore he burned many of them in the kamin (fireplace) downstairs.

Weiner:

Did he have a special file of these letters? Or were they just mixed with the others?

Schultz:

It was mixed with the others, but we went through them and took out what was dangerous to keep.

Weiner:

What would be dangerous, letters of people who had left?

Schultz:

The Jews who had been here. They would see Professor Bohrís connection with them. Therefore, when the Institute was released again, some Germans came out. I think they were scientists, not very famous but it was physicists, and they would take letters from all correspondence to see what was here. And they took one letter and looked at it — it was from Heisenberg.

Weiner:

The first one, you mean?

Schultz:

Yes, the first one. Then they gave it up. They could see there was nothing to do.

Weiner:

How many letters were destroyed, the ones you refer to?

Schultz:

I canít tell you how many.

Weiner:

A stack a couple of inches, a big stack? Who did this? Whose idea was it?

Schultz:

I think Professor Bohr must have asked me to do it.

Weiner:

So you did it yourself.

Schultz:

Yes.

Weiner:

He selected them with you?

Schultz:

Yes, he told me what should be taken out; I think I did it alone.

Weiner:

The letters — Iím not sure of one thing. If everybody knew that German scientists, whether they were Jewish or not, some of them were coming to the Institute, in the early years, in l930s, why could these letters be damaging to them? Or were these letters that talked about politics?

Schultz:

Yes, I think it was — or scientific matters, if there should be some secrets about atomic bombs or such things.

Weiner:

By that time — when was this —

Schultz:

They had no atomic bomb, but they hoped to have it, I think and would look if there should be anything about that in the correspondence.

Weiner:

But they never did make the search, after finding that one letter?

Schultz:

No, they did not. The first day — but that was soldiers. They went around the whole Institute. But then it was closed down by them.

Weiner:

So they didnít go to the files during those two or three months.

Schultz:

No.

Weiner:

When was it that you burned, destroyed these letters? Before the Germans came? I donít mean when they came to the Institute, but to Denmark?

Schultz:

It was when they came to Denmark, I think, before they came to the Institute. Then you couldnít do it. They were sitting downstairs at the kamin (fireplace) where you would burn these things. It would have been impossible. It was before that.

Weiner:

Very interesting. That was when Tom Lauritsen was still here.

Schultz:

No.

Weiner:

He was still here when the Germans came.

Schultz:

He was not here when the Germans came to the Institute.

Weiner:

No, I mean when they came to Denmark.

Schultz:

When they came to Denmark, yes, But then he went away as soon as he could. I think, as far as I can remember, it was through Portugal, that way. He had been married at that time, you know. Here and both of them went home as soon as they could, and the way it was possible to go.

Weiner:

Was there any discussion then of the possibility that Professor Bohr would also leave at that time?

Schultz:

No. He told me the day before he left. I asked him if it was not too dangerous for him to stay. Then he said, ďNo, I remain here.Ē But the next day he was away. He had a warning from somebody, I think the Germans that he should go away, for the next day they would come and take him, arrest him. And he went away the same evening. So he said to me after he came home, ďI have often thought of you, what you must have thought of me — I had just told you I would stay, and then I was away the next day.Ē

Weiner:

This was in 1943. 1944, in February, when you were back up. How soon did he leave? What was the date of his leaving?

Schultz:

When Professor Bohr left? Yes, it must be one of the last days in September 1943.

Weiner:

What Iím interested in is from the time the Germans came, to the time at the end of 1943, what was life like at the Institute?

Schultz:

It was as usual. People worked here as usual. A few times — no, only one or two — two officers came and asked for Moller. They were engineers and scientists and wanted to see the Institute, if they could look at the Institute. Then Moller said to them, ďYes, you are welcome, but not in that uniform,Ē in German. Nobody will show you the Institute when you — ďNo, no they will come in their civil dress.Ē And they did so, and they looked at the Institute.

Weiner:

The cyclotron at that time was working?

Schultz:

I think so. It was. Yes. Well, very often it was not working. But Jacobsen was here, and Jacobsenís assistant, it was [Nielso] Lassen, they worked on the cyclotron.

Weiner:

During the war then the staff was Professor Bohr, Jacobsen, Lassen and Rasmussen was still here, Moller, Hansen —

Schultz:

No, Hansen had his own institute by that time.

Weiner:

Yes, and then Rozental — he left?

Schultz:

He left when the Germans came here, yes, and Mrs. Hellmann too, and Miss Levi.

Weiner:

They all went to Sweden?

Schultz:

Yes, they went to Sweden, together with Fru Rozental. They lived together in Sweden, the four of them.

Weiner:

Hilde Levi.

Schultz:

Fru Hilde Levi.

Weiner:

She lived together with Rozentals and Hellmann.

Schultz:

Yes.

Weiner:

So that was another institute.

Schultz:

Yes, well no. Fru Hellmann had nothing to do. Yes, I think he got a letter from some place that Rozental could work there. I think Miss Levi was working in a laboratory (Wennergrenís Institute).

Weiner:

I see. Then the staff —

Schultz:

There were many more, there were Brostrom, Lassen, and many others.

Weiner:

What about visitors. I imagine you would get visitors then.

Schultz:

Yes. I think some Swedish. I think Oskar Klein also was here. Miss (Lise) Meitner, she came here on the 8th or 9th of April, just on the same day when the Germans took the country. She came from Sweden. I did not know anything. She came here to the Institute and then it was occupied.

Weiner:

She came on a visit?

Schultz:

Yes. Sometimes she came on a visit. But it was a bad time to come.

Weiner:

So how long did she stay?

Schultz:

Not very long. She was very quickly allowed to go back to Sweden.

Weiner:

You say the 9th of April —

Schultz:

It was occupied; the country was occupied on the 9th of April. Then she came just the same day.

Weiner:

She went back immediately?

Schultz:

Not immediately. There was something should be brought in order before they should see her papers and so. But it was not very long. She was here only a few days.

Weiner:

What was life like in Denmark at the time of the occupation? You said you had your regular duties. What was it like in genera1?

Schultz:

It was not pleasant. There must not be any light. The windows should be blacked out. All the windows; all people and the street cars as well. There were tiny blue lamps, and it was not good to go out in the evening, one couldnít see. And all had to wear a white armband to be seen. If they had black clothes, one couldnít see them. It was quite dark. No light in the streets. It was a very bad time.

Weiner:

What about food?

Schultz:

Yes, it was not so good. It was rationed; one had cards for bread and butter and meat.

Weiner:

But the regular routine, for example, for someone to be paid by their employer, that was still all right to get a check, go to the bank, that was all normal?

Schultz:

Yes, it was normal.

Weiner:

And the theatre, the shops, the movies — that was normal?

Schultz:

Yes, it was.

Weiner:

How about the German soldiers. What effect did they have on the life of the city? You saw them on the street.

Schultz:

Yes. Some people tried to give them trouble. But they were themselves polite and they had nothing to say to them. Also, the soldiers here, it was SS men who sat here. But they were polite and quite correct.

Weiner:

You didnít have much contact with them, because —

Schultz:

I had some contact with them, because it was my office, and my box with the money, the Instituteís money. So I had to go sometime and fetch something there.

Weiner:

What I mean is that you werenít living here anymore during the two months of occupation.

Schultz:

No, but it took two weeks or so before we could leave.

Weiner:

You didnít come to work on those days after that.

Schultz:

No, only in Polytechnisk Laereanstalt. No, not here. I had no office to sit in.

Weiner:

Did any of the students, technical people, scientific people here get involved in sabotage or anything like that?

Schultz:

No, I donít think so.

Weiner:

They kept apart from that.

Schultz:

Yes. There came no Germans here in the Institute, and one could keep away from them if one wanted. They did not do anything. If people — yes, they took — you know the great building just here in Blegamsuej, the Frimurerloge — whatís that called in English? Ö I must have my Danish-English book. I think Mr. Spencer has taken it. No, itís not there.

Weiner:

Hereís one, the old one. It means Freemason.

Schultz:

The Freemasonsí Lodge, in the Masonic Order. You know, itís a very very big building. And the members have to pay something to be members. And they came once a week for meetings there. But then it was taken by the Germans, and they took their things away, and there was during the occupation of the Institute, there was what we call Frikorps Danmark there. They were Danish traitors.

Weiner:

Danish home guard?

Schultz:

Ö traitors Ö

Weiner:

Oh, traitors.

Schultz:

It was Danish people who went over to the Germans.

Weiner:

Danish Nazis.

Schultz:

And they were put in there, sitting there, and there was a man with a gun sitting outside or two men. We couldnít walk there, we must go on the other side of the street — we dared not pass that building. And these people, they were shooting every night. And then I asked one of these soldiers who were sent here, ďWhy do you do so? It disturbs very much people in the neighborhood.Ē Then he said, ďWe never shoot. That is those people (the traitors) in there. Not us.Ē They are so afraid that if a piece of paper flies, they will shoot.

Weiner:

They had reason to be afraid.

Schultz:

Yes.

Weiner:

Now, for the time — Iím trying to find out, how long a time was it that you were here at the same time that the Germans were here.

Schultz:

I think about a fortnight. I think it was about a fortnight, before we found some place to live.

Weiner:

That must have been difficult during that time.

Schultz:

Yes, but we got some space in the other institutes — Professor Kroghís Institute, Zoophysiologisk Institute, August Krogh.

Weiner:

Krogh, yes. He has a new building named after him.

Schultz:

Yes. He had a house besides the institute, and there were two small rooms in the basement, and there my son arid I lived during these two months, one and a half months, and Boggild got a flat in another institute out there. The people had gone away and they had that flat for a long time. It was impossible to get a flat in Copenhagen. But then we had to leave there. Not very pleasant.

Weiner:

When you came back to the Institute, did you come back to live at the Institute?

Schultz:

Yes.

Weiner:

That was just for two months. When you came back, had anything changed? Had they taken anything, broken anything?

Schultz:

No. Not during that time. They had taken something the first morning, when there was, I think, 60 or — yes — soldiers running around, and they had taken something, watches and photo apparatus and so on of peopleís private things. But when they came to take (occupy) the Institute, then everything was closed. They didnít take anything. They did not destroy anything. Of course, it was very dirty, because the people who used to keep the Institute clean wouldnít come. It was very dirty when we came back, but nothing spoiled [destroyed].

Weiner:

Then life came again [working here], students and others and staff.

Schultz:

Yes.

Weiner:

That was the first time in the history of the Institute that it operated for a long period of time without Professor Bohr being here.

Schultz:

Yes.

Weiner:

Who was in charge? Who did people look to as the main person?

Schultz:

It was Professors Jacobsen and Moller together, who substituted for Professor Bohr when he was away, these two.

Weiner:

Yes. Of course they had no ideaÖ(off tape)

Weiner:

On the last tape and while changing tapes, we were interrupted by a photographer taking pictures of the key in which a secret message was delivered to Professor Bohr, during the German occupation of Denmark, so it was a coincidence that a photographer from outside would be here today to take that picture. But I was asking you, after Professor Bohr left, the leadership of the Institute was handled by —

Schultz:

Jacobsen and Moller.

Weiner:

And what about problems of money, for example, of the funds that came from various foundations? I know the Rockefeller money was not given during the war.

Schultz:

— No. No. But the Carlsberg paid during the war. I think they also paid the amounts which Rockefeller should have done. Because we should use the money I think the Carlsberg paid it.

Weiner:

Yes, I think so, and then Rockefeller paid back —

Schultz:

Afterwards, yes.

Weiner:

Was that any problem at all on the finances during this period? Schulz: No.

Weiner:

Salaries were paid, there was enough money for equipment —

Schultz:

— everything, yes. There were not so many things for equipment because you could get them. Many things couldnít be had during the war. But it went as usual, I think.

Weiner:

I remember reading in some part of the Rozental volume, that the beginning of the war, the Institute did make gas masks. Do you remember? Did you see any of that?

Schultz:

Yes, I showed you n that book, you see pictures of it. It was because Professor Chievitz — a friend of Professor Bohrís, he was at the Institute — professor and he wanted to have this oxygen apparatus, yes, such things to set in the nose, and the whole Institute was working on that for some days. Everybody in the Institute. We have pictures of it.

Weiner:

I was in a hurry the other day. We didnít look at them.

Schultz:

No. Is the book here? Have you brought it back?

Weiner:

Yes, you put it back yesterday

Schultz:

Did I? You can take it if you want to. If I remember where those pictures are in the back of the book —

Weiner:

Was this before the Germans came?

Schultz:

No, I think it was when the Germans were in the country, but not in the Institute.

Weiner:

I see. This was done secretly at the Institute. They were not supposed to know about this, the Germans?

Schultz:

It was done before, they came.

Weiner:

I know, but they were in Denmark.

Schultz:

No, they did not know anything, never came to the Institute nor to the hospital — here they are, all the pictures.

Weiner:

Let me get over on your side to look at them.

Schultz:

Thatís the only day in his life that Moller has worn such a white little kittel, the only day.

Weiner:

Thatís the day the theorist gets his hands dirty so he has to wear a white coat.

Schultz:

Yes. Thatís Jacobsen, hereís Hilde Levi, hereís Hansen, Professor Hansen. Thereís Hans Bohr. Brostrom, Jacobsen, Levi, Rebbe he has died, very young. He was also assistant here. Arley and Tom Lauritsen.

Weiner:

Oh yes. Thatís all on the same project, the making of the gas masks; oxygen masks.

Schultz:

Yes, it was; the gas oxygen masks. You see, everybodyís occupied with that. Oh yes. They have packed them in some boxes.

Weiner:

Well, it wasnít very secret if there were all these photographs of them taken out in the front of the building.

Schultz:

Yes. And I, packing it in small boxesÖ

Weiner:

I see, there you are, yes. And then this other photograph of the German guard. Now, this one has been reproduced elsewhere. It shows the guard silhouetted the back of him, in the entrance to the Institute. This was taken during the occupation of the Institute, the two months?

Schultz:

Yes, of course. Otherwise we had not such persons here.

Weiner:

Who was here to take it, then?

Schultz:

I do not know who has taken it.

Weiner:

I see. These are the signs, telling them they donít want anyone to go in these rooms.

Schultz:

You see, it was not a lot for the soldiers, (the Germans) to come in. All this. It was on that time when they were here, we couldnít be here. Then we had a small office in the Polytechnisk Laereanstalt.

Weiner:

Letís see if we can identify some of them. That will help us know who the staff was. Is this picture supposed to represent the remaining Institute staff as of December, 1943?

Schultz:

Yes, almost. Not he, he was a mathematician. But that is [Torben] Huus, he is there now, and Borge Madsen.

Weiner:

Torben Huus and Borge Madsen.

Schultz:

It t was Jensen, he was the mechanician, and also he — and it was a man from Polytecknisk Laereanstalt, also he — thatís Carl Olsen, who had the workshop, and Jacobsen, and this is Mrs. Torne have. Her husband there, is a mathematician, and Brostrom and Bjerge, Moller and Arley.

Weiner:

So that was the staff.

Schultz:

Yes.

Weiner:

Free-given means itís given back?

Schultz:

Given back.

Weiner:

So this is the newspaper clipping.

Schultz:

Yes, it is from the newspaper. Then there came two officers and gave it back, and have signed — Moller and Jacobsen have signed there.

Weiner:

I see. Thatís what we talked about the other day.

Schultz:

Yes, it was. It was to protect the windows. Now it is broken down. During the war — to protect the windows.

Weiner:

So these were extra brick walls built in front of the windows.

Schultz:

Yes.

Weiner:

Just as a temporary thing.

Schultz:

Yes. There we are waiting for Professor Bohr when he came back.

Weiner:

Oh, this is 1945, then, these photographs now.

Schultz:

1945, yes it was.

Weiner:

This is the actual photograph of him returning, that very day?

Schultz:

When he stood there and waited for a big car. It didnít come, any car. But Professor Bohr and his bicycle.

Weiner:

Who is this with him over here?

Schultz:

Jorgen Boggild and thatís Jorgen Koch — was assistant here, now heís professor.

Weiner:

Thatís very interesting. Perhaps we should go on. I think the next part of it — we were talking about Jacobsen and Moller as being in charge for that period and things going on more or less the same — from February 2, 1941 until Professor Bohr came back was almost two years, I guess, a year and a half.

Schultz:

No, the war has not ended. The war ended in Ď45.

Weiner:

Yes, in August 1945. He came back after that.

Schultz:

Yes.

Weiner:

Do you remember the reaction here, about the end of the war, and also about the idea of the atom bomb?

Schultz:

No, not any reaction, but there was a very exciting thing to hear. To hear about. I have spoken with Frisch afterwards, and he was there when it was, the very first bomb was. So I asked him if they were not afraid that it should hit themselves, and he said no, it was quite correctly exploded. They were not afraid at all.

Weiner:

But the word here — what was the thought here, when you heard the war was over? Of course by that time the war with Germany was already over.

Schultz:

When we heard the war was over, it was an evening. We heard it from England. Then all the black curtains were torn down, and the light in all windows, and many many people ran in the street. But it was very dangerous, because there were these corpses of the traitors piling up.

Weiner:

The Danish supporters of the Nazis.

Schultz:

Danish supporters, yes. So many were shot in these days after the peace had come.

Weiner:

That was after the victory over the Germans, June of 1945.

Schultz:

It was in May, wasnít it?

Weiner:

June 6, I think I remember the victory. Well, maybe over here it was.

Schultz:

I think it was in May — the real day when we heard.

Weiner:

Oh yes, thatís when you heard first. Liberation, a celebration, the candles in the windows.

Schultz:

Yes. Itís done every year, on and on. Also not quite so many, but still many people have candles in the window on the 4th of May. Then, when it was quite clear that Professor Bohr would be coming back — by looking at the photographs right now, I realize it would be nice to record what happened that day, what the feeling was, just what went on.

Schultz:

When Professor Bohr came?

Weiner:

Yes. When did you first come into contact with him again, after —

Schultz:

I donít remember, but very soon after the peace. I had Mrs. Bohr on the telephone from Sweden. She telephoned and asked if there was something she could bring with her. You see, we had no stockings and no shirts and all such things — if she could bring something for any people. But with Professor Bohr — it was Mrs. Bohr went over to England to meet him. Then they came back both of them. It was in May or in June, I donít remember.

Weiner:

Wasnít it after the bomb, which was in August?

Schultz:

Maybe.

Weiner:

He was before then?

Schultz:

It may be Iím mistaken. It was after the bomb.

Weiner:

So it was after the victory over Japan. Well, we can look that up. Then did you know on what day he would be coming into the Institute?

Schultz:

Yes. Yes, we heard when he would come, and then we went downstairs to take care of him. We had lunch over there in the Mathematical Institute, and brought sandwiches and beer and soup, and then Professor Bohr and his sons, two of them, and all people here were there, the first day, yes.

Weiner:

You say you expected him.

Schultz:

I expected him to come in a car. We knew that his car had been taken by the Germans, but we thought that he would come in a jeep or such thing from England. Then he came on his own bicycle.

Weiner:

That was a surprise. You were waiting — the photograph showed that you were all waiting in front for him.

Schultz:

Yes. Yes, some of us were — a few of us.

Weiner:

So that was a sort of a special moment.

Schultz:

It was a very special moment, yes, really.

Weiner:

Did he seem much changed to you?

Schultz:

No, I donít think so. He was the same, came with his bicycle, the same as when he went away. There was not much change.

Weiner:

How soon was it before he got down to every day —

Schultz:

— it was very soon, when he came to the Institute again, and at the end of a year, the New Yearís plans for the enlargement of the Institute came. Then we wrote applications for money, during the whole January, I think.

Weiner:

Of l946.

Schultz:

Yes.

Weiner:

These plans, were they discussed in those months when he came back, or he had them in mind all along?

Schultz:

He had them in mind, but not in detail, but when he came home it was discussed with architects and all the people, and it was the big building over there.

Weiner:

The one where Aage Bohrís office is. When you say he had them in mind, you mean before he left?

Schultz:

No. He would see if the Institute was there when the war was over, then it was time to think of such things. But during the war one of the high tension apparatus was built, that Van de Graaff which Tom Lauritsen took part in here.

Weiner:

What would you say was the most important change that had taken place in the Institute during the period from the start of the war to the end?

Schultz:

The most important change? Yes, during the war there were no foreigners here. That was a great change. No visitors. But soon after, Professor Bohr began with his yearly conferences again.

Weiner:

Of course one change was the apparatus, the Van de Graaff thing, which was important. In l946, was also — was it the birthday? Yes, it was the 25th anniversary of the Institute.

Schultz:

Yes, yes. The 25th, yes.

Weiner:

The celebration was also held in March 3?

Schultz:

Yes, but I donít think there was very much celebration. Only downstairs in Professor Bohrís room, we had a glass of wine and some cakes, and Olsen and I got a small silver thing, as we had been here for 25 years, before Professor Bohr came back. But he wasnít here that day.

Weiner:

Yes, I see. Then the annual meetings started again.

Schultz:

Yes.

Weiner:

There must have been a change regarding the German scientists people like Heisenberg and many others whoíd been here earlier.

Schultz:

Yes. Yes.

Weiner:

Do you recall what Professor Bohrís feeling was about that?

Schultz:

No. He wanted to have all of them coming again, I think. It was the Germans — they had thought when they took the Institute, that Friedrich von Weizsacker should be the head of the Institute, and should go on working with Weizsacker. But as far as we have heard, Weizsacker denied to go here. He wouldnít do it and he did not come.

Weiner:

That you feel may be a reason why they didnít keep the Institute?

Schultz:

Yes, Weizsackerís father was State Secretary, a very high position, and Professor Bohr thought that he had held his hand over the Institute; therefore it has gone for such a long time. Yes, I think it was rather nice people, the Weizsackers.

Weiner:

How soon after the war did the old style of small groups and annual meetings, how soon did this change into the much larger expanded —?

Schultz:

It expanded from year to year, I think. There came still more people.

Weiner:

It was a gradual thing.

Schultz:

Yes, I think it was.

Weiner:

The new building for which the money was sought in 1946, when did construction start on that?

Schultz:

When it started? In 1946, I think. Yes, it must have been in 1946.

Weiner:

So again Professor Bohrís interests were involved in that kind of practical thing.

Schultz:

Very much. Very much. There is a small picture, but I do not remember just where it is with people standing out there and Professor Bohr is making the first, what is that called?

Weiner:

Shovel of earth.

Schultz:

Yes, the first for the new building.

Weiner:

Yes, Iíve seen that.

Schultz:

Iíve seen it. I donít know where it is but I know that it exists.

Weiner:

I think that takes care, for me, of those questions. What I would like to do now as a final thing is to ask you about some names of people, that I know youíre very good at. You can think of who the person was and tell me something about him, when I mention a name. I have the list of publications of the Institute, and it would take too long to do it all, but perhaps, maybe for some of the years in the 1930s, there were some names of people who Iím not familiar with, and maybe this would help us find out people on the staff, or if he was a visitor, and so on. Maybe we can look at this together.

Schultz:

Oh yes. Wonít you take a chair?

Weiner:

I can just call out the names Iím not familiar with. This is just the list of publications. In some eases it doesnít mean that theyíre here because it could have been — but one of the people I wanted to ask you about was Ralph Fowler. I know who he is from Cambridge.

Schultz:

He was here for some time.

Weiner:

Yes, he was here in the l920s a good deal, I think.

Schultz:

For some time he was here. That you can find out from the guest book.

Weiner:

From the guest book, right. And did he — I noticed in the letters, he had a lot of letters to and from Professor Bohr.

Schultz:

Yes.

Weiner:

Did he work closely with him or was he more or less of a —

Schultz:

— no, I donít think so —

Weiner:

— connection —

Schultz:

— yes —

Weiner:

— from Cambridge?

Weiner:

Anyway, he didnít work here with him on problems.

Schultz:

Not very much.

Weiner:

And [Douglass] Hartree is also from Cambridge, do you recall him?

Schultz:

Yes, I recall him.

Weiner:

He was here as a visitor.

Schultz:

He was also here as a visitor, yes.

Weiner:

Hereís a man, Hulthen —

Schultz:

Hulthen, Eric Hulthen from Sweden. He was here for a long time, but he has never been here afterwards. He never came to the conferences. I think he has gone over to some other occupation. I do not know.

Weiner:

Then Oskar Klein and Nishina we know about them.

Schultz:

— Mott, also from England — has also been here, about the time Gamow was here, I think.

Weiner:

And Moller from the staff here, Rasmussen and Trumpy was from?

Schultz:

From Norway.

Weiner:

Right. He seemed to be here pretty regularly at the conferences, anyway.

Schultz:

Sometimes. Not so much, but he has been at some conferences. Now his son is professor here in the Institute, I think.

Schultz:

Sometimes. Not so much, but he has been at some conferences. Now his son is professor here in the H. C. Orsted Institute, I think. When Trumpy was here, his son stands outside in his car — a [pram].

Weiner:

The childís car. Itís a play car.

Schultz:

No, it was not a play car. He was very little and slept in that car.

Weiner:

Oh, that, a baby buggy.

Schultz:

Yes. Werner was one of the staff.

Weiner:

Yes, right. Casimir I know was here regularly.

Schultz:

He worked very close with Professor Bohr, as soon as he came. Huchel(?) not so much. He was here one time only.

Weiner:

Chadwick weíve talked about before. He was never really here before the war. Heíd been invited a couple of times but was unable to come.

Schultz:

I donít think — I donít think Iíve seen him.

Weiner:

Gamow weíve talked about being here several times.

Schultz:

He went back to Russia, and then he came back again.

Weiner:

Right. I know about them. What about Landau? I know who he is of course, but —

Schultz:

I only think he has been here once. That was for some time, maybe a year or so.

Weiner:

I have something that in 1930 he was here.

Schultz:

It was very short.

Weiner:

From the 8th of April to the 3rd of May.

Schultz:

Then he has been here again.

Weiner:

Yes, there he is, 28th of September to 22nd of November.

Schultz:

No, it was not a long time.

Weiner:

Thatís about a month here and a month there.

Schultz:

I thought he had been here much longer.

Weiner:

I think another year, though. (crosstalk) And Nielsen.

Schultz:

He is from Ohio. I think he was here for a year, maybe.

Weiner:

Yes, I have his name on some letters. I know from the letters.

Schultz:

Rasmussen we have had.

Weiner:

Max Delbruck —

Schultz:

Delbruck was here together with Gamow. He was Hungarian who was here only for a short time. C. B. Madson, Danish — is in Aarhms now Ė- he started here at the Institute, but never been really a member of the staff.

Weiner:

I see. This is 1931 weíre talking about, and Madson, yes.

Schultz:

Swenson I do not remember, but, he was a Swedish man, must have been here a very short time. Rosenfeld comes in —

Weiner:

Solomon came in — did he work here? Some of these people, by the way, perhaps were not here because they may have worked with —

Schultz:

He has been here for some time. He was a son-in-law of Langevin.

Weiner:

Yes, he was the one that was killed in the war by the Nazis.

Schultz:

Yes.

Weiner:

Now, Ambrosen —

Schultz:

— he was assistant here and now has that position at the radio station here.

Weiner:

Kupferman came from GermanyÖ

Schultz:

He came from Germany, and he was here for some time. And he was here on a visit after the war, on a short visit. A Danish man who was in the Polytechnic staff and worked with, some people here — he seems to be here — yes, he was, he was here, Ruud Nielson.

Weiner:

Heís coming again I think this summer. Some people told me. Someone did a thesis here, thatís Rasmussen, February, 1932.

Schultz:

Yes. Miller has also done his here.

Weiner:

Felix Bloch.

Schultz:

Felix Bloch has also been here for some time. Only once, I think, but then he came sometimes to the conferences.

Weiner:

Chandrasekhar was here from India for a period of time. I noticed that people like Chandrasekhar and Stromgren worked here for a little time, but their field is somewhat different. Itís astrophysics.

Schultz:

He was here, but he left also, Chandrasekhar. Is that not astronomical?

Weiner:

Yes, it was. Hereís a man here, a new name, Knudsen.

Schultz:

He has no meaning here. He was not a very pleasant man. But he worked sometimes with Kopferman as his assistant, but never more. He was here as a student only.

Weiner:

I see. For a short period of time?

Schultz:

Yes. Not occupied here, only when he studied, for a short time here.

Weiner:

I see. These others are the names we know.

Schultz:

Gamow, Gamow, Gamow, Jacobsen — Kalckar. Kalckar worked very much with Professor Bohr.

Weiner:

How did he first start here, as a student?

Schultz:

Yes, as a student.

Weiner:

Would you say during this period, 1934, that he was the one who was working most closely with Professor Bohr?

Schultz:

Yes, for some years he was. He died in 1928 — 1938, of course, he was 28.

Weiner:

It was just after the trip Professor Bohr took to the United States.

Schultz:

Yes, and Kalckar was with him and stayed in California with Oppenheimer, I think, and then Professor Bohr and Mrs. Bohr went away to Japan. They lived together here.

Weiner:

And it was just after that that he died. What was the cause of his death, or werenít they sure? Was it some kind of sickness or an accident?

Schultz:

No. It was something — suddenly he went out of his bed and fell to the floor and was dead. He lived with his mother.

Weiner:

He was a young man.

Schultz:

Yes, 28 years. But afterwards his brother who was a little older told us that they had been together on a journey, the three brothers, and then he had had such an attack, Fritz Kalckar. There must have been something wrong in his head. It was a great blow.

Weiner:

Yes, I can tell from the letters.

Schultz:

Yes. We liked him so much, all of us.

Weiner:

Edward Teller was here for meetings, I know.

Schultz:

Yes. I do not know whether he has been here really for some time — maybe for a small period he has been here. Iíve seen him.

Weiner:

Heís shown in one of those photographs with Gamow, for example, that funny one with the motorcycle and the skis.

Schultz:

Oh yes.

Weiner:

So he was certainly here at that time.

Schultz:

At that time, Landau and Gamow.

Weiner:

Placzek weíve talked about a little.

Schultz:

He has been here also for some time and came back sometimes, and was here at the conferences also. He has also died. Also Kopfermann.

Weiner:

Thereís a man who has one paper with Kopfermann. Is that name familiar to you?

Schultz:

It was not a man. It was a young lady.

Weiner:

Rindahl, she was a student here?

Schultz:

She was a student here, and worked a little with Kopfermann when he was here. But thatís the only thing from Miss Rindahl.

Weiner:

Did she get her doctorís degree here?

Schultz:

No, I donít think so. She was a teacher. She was at a school in Hillerod I think.

Weiner:

Plesset was here, at least he worked with Moller. Yes, he was here because I saw his picture on one of those groups. Do you remember much about him? He was an American, a student of Oppenheimerís.

Schultz:

Yes, and he came here alone, and then came his wife. Then he had been married, I do not know whether in Denmark or in America, but then came his wife and they had a flat here somewhere. I think they must have been here at least a year. And they were here in 1963 to a memory conference.

Weiner:

Now, G. Schmidt Nielsen Ė-

Schultz:

No, he was a student here. I do not know much of him. I think he has been a teacher too, afterwards.

Weiner:

Hereís Weizsacker you mentioned about him.

Schultz:

Yes.

Weiner:

He came to some of the annual meetings, I know.

Schultz:

Yes, and he has also been here before for some time earlier.

Weiner:

What about Williams? He was another man who died relatively young.

Schultz:

Yes, very young. Yes, he was such a nice man.

Weiner:

Do you recall him as being here as a visitor?

Schultz:

Yes. I do not remember with whom he worked. Maybe can it be Jacobsen?

Weiner:

No, he was a theorist, and the subject of this is electrodynamics, and he would have been working with Moller or Rosenfeld or Bohr.

Schultz:

No, no. Bjerge. He has been here, assistant, I think, only for a year, and then he was professor at the Polyteknisk Laereanstalt.

Weiner:

This is 1935 weíre talking about, right.

Schultz:

Yes, and also Kalckar.

Weiner:

Chievitz —

Schultz:

— he was a doctor of medicine. Professor Bohrís very near friend. But he worked together with Hevesy. It must have been some biological thing.

Weiner:

Yes, it was. Using these isotopes for rats and so forth. I notice that when James C. Franck came he worked some with Hilde Levi.

Schultz:

Levi, yes.

Weiner:

She had already come?

Schultz:

She came in 1934, I think. Only as a student, and should only have been here for half a year, a year, and then she went back to Germany and, was to marry at Christmas time. But then he would not have her. It was Bethe, do you know Bethe?

Weiner:

Hans Bethe, sureÖ

Schultz:

Yes. She went back. It was broken and she was very unhappy. She did not know what to do. Then Franck telephoned to Professor Bohr, what to do, she was very unhappy, can she come to you? ďYes, of course.Ē The door was always open. Then she came and stayed and took Sophie Hellmann with her.

Weiner:

Oh, Hellmann was where? Where was she at the time?

Schultz:

She was in Germany. She was secretary for German professor, I think.

Weiner:

I see. Do you know what city they came from in Germany?

Schultz:

I think Munchen.

Weiner:

Thatís where she wou1d have known Bethe because thatís where he was a student and did his work. Then he went back Ė-

Schultz:

I think the professor that Hellmann was, it was in Munchen.

Weiner:

I see. Thatís interesting. And so they were friends then, Hilde Levi and Hellmann were friends, so the two of them came together, you mean?

Schultz:

No, Levi came alone, but then why did Hellmann come here? Because the workers — she came here at the Nazi time also. But she could not get a position here. It was impossible because she was not — then Professor Bohr took her. There was so much work for me. Then we might have another to help, and then came Hellmann.

Weiner:

Then Otto Frisch, of course, came first about that time, Otto Robert Frisch, and he lived here too, didnít he.

Schultz:

Yes. Yes, for a long time. He lived here, in the other building, many years ago.

Weiner:

He had the piano in his room.

Schultz:

Yes, he had, and also Felix Bloch had, besides him, and Bloch played in the night time. It did not hurt me.

Weiner:

Now, Sorensen worked with —

Schultz:

He was a student who helped Frisch for a short time. [Hofer?] I do not know, but it has been together with Krogh so it may be a man belonging to Kroghís Institute.

Weiner:

To the biological work.

Schultz:

Biological work, yes.

Weiner:

About Hevesy — was his work at the Institute pretty much by itself? Or did Professor Bohr take any interest in it?

Schultz:

No, he worked by himself. He had some rooms and a few assistants here. Worked with himself.

Weiner:

Then Hilde Levi came to work. When she came she began to work with him.

Schultz:

Yes, and some other assistants he had, Zerahn(?) and Ottesen, and then some young engineers, B. Johanson, I think it was a young man belonging to Polytechnisk Laereanstalt I donít think he has been here.

Weiner:

I see, did spectroscopy work?

Schultz:

Yes.

Weiner:

These are all familiar names Ė-

Schultz:

[John] Wheeler came in there.

Weiner:

Yes, do you remember anything about his visit?

Schultz:

Only that he was here for a very long time.

Weiner:

He was here for a year.

Schultz:

Yes and worked together with Professor Bohr here, and when Professor Bohr went to America, he saw Wheeler.

Weiner:

Schneider is someone whoís new to me.

Schultz:

It is a young German who came at the same time as Hilde Levi and worked at the same things.

Weiner:

I see. Thatís good to know.

Schultz:

Then comes Williams.

Weiner:

In 1936, thereís the first time we see Arleyís name. Whatís the background of Arley?

Schultz:

He was an assistant at the Institute. But you know there was something wrong with his brain. Suddenly he declared he was professor, and he wou1d be here and he should have an office and workshop and everything. He was not so quiet. There should be a professorship in geophysics and he thought it should be him, and he wrote to America and all people abroad, and now he has become a professor. It was not right.

Weiner:

When was this?

Schultz:

It was l8 years ago. He has gone down in Copenhagen for 18 years and got his salary every month, without doing any work. He was quite special [case].

Weiner:

He stayed at the Institute. He started as an assistant in 1936 and stayed until — l8 years ago? Was he here during the war too?

Schultz:

Yes. He was Danish.

Weiner:

But you didnít see any problems, was he pleasant to work with, did he participate?

Schultz:

No, he couldnít work together with other people. He was a very difficult person. The latest thing he has done now is to [matriculate] — he has gone into the university as a student now, because otherwise he has nothing to do here. But when he studies at the university, he was allowed to come in here. He is 60 years old but now he is a student here. You may meet him.

Weiner:

Yes, Iím glad you told me.

Schultz:

Yes, you must be careful. But I liked him. He was rather good. But he was not right in his brain. Brostrom worked together with Tom Lauritsen when he was here, on the Van de Graaff.

Weiner:

Yes, and weíve talked about Bjerge —

Schultz:

McKay was a man from Scotland who was here for some time, working in Hevesyís department.

Weiner:

This is 1936 weíre talking about now.

Schultz:

Hevesy, Levi; Linderstromlang was professor at the Carlsberg Laboratory. He has died now. C. Olson — I do not know, I think he belongs to the other department.

Weiner:

I see, at the Carlsberg.

Schultz:

Jacobsen, Kalckar Ö we have mentioned all of them, and WeisskopfÖ

Weiner:

We know about Victor Weisskopf.

Schultz:

Yes, we know Weisskopf.

Weiner:

Bethe Ė-

Schultz:

He was a very short time here.

Weiner:

Yes, I donít know that he really spent any time, because at this time he was in the United States for several years already. And I think it was Placzek who was here.

Schultz:

Placzek was here. I have seen Bethe, I know. I have seen Bethe.

Weiner:

Oh, at meetings, at lots of meetings here. I wouldnít check that.

Schultz:

Yes, I have not known him very well but I have seen him.

Weiner:

Now we get all the way down, these are all familiar names, until you find Halban for the first time. Schultz; Yes, I do not know very much about Halban.

Weiner:

He was a German who went to work in Paris and then —

Schultz:

Oh yes, he came from Paris.

Weiner:

I think he knew Placzek also. Well, from here, they were here at the same time.

Schultz:

Yes. Yes, we heard that his wife divorced and his wife married Placzek afterwards.

Weiner:

Was Placzek also married earlier?

Schultz:

No.

Weiner:

When they met, he was not married, no. Of course everybody really likes to marry Ė- but I want to have a house, a wife and two children at once. That he got. He got Mrs. Halban with a few children, two boys. They were not small babies, no.

Weiner:

When was this? Do you recall when this was?

Schultz:

When he was married to her? It must have been during the war, because Mrs. Halban met Professor Bohr in America when Professor Bohrís code name was Nicholas Baker.

Weiner:

Halban was up in Montreal, on the Canadian, the British project up there, so maybe it was through that.

Schultz:

Yes — he was, from his wife, because — thatís a funny story. Professor Bohr met her and she went up to Professor Bohr and said, ďOh, you are Professor Bohr.Ē ďNo,Ē he said, ďI am Nicholas Baker.Ē Suddenly he recognized her and said, ďOh, I remember, you are Mrs. Halban.Ē ďNo, Iím Mrs. Placzek.Ē

Weiner:

Thatís really good, a classic story. Well, down the list we find [Jorgen] Koch.

Schultz:

Koch was assistant here for several years.

Weiner:

Right, we talked about him before. Now, for the first time we find L. Hahn.

Schultz:

He was from Czechoslovakia, I think, and worked in Hevesyís department.

Weiner:

So he was an assistant —

Schultz:

— for Hevesy, yes

Weiner:

Was he here very long?

Schultz:

I think not very long, but I think a couple of years.

Weiner:

You see, all of this is helpful to me, because then when I have the other information of the guests and so forth I can understand a little bit more about it.

Schultz:

Oh yes. Yes.

Weiner:

Is that the same Lundsgaard who was in the United States? We were talking about that just the other day.

Schultz:

Yes, the very same.

Weiner:

Right, thatís the one. He worked then later with Hevesy. And then you have Holst —

Schultz:

— he was a dentist. He was the head of the dentist school.

Weiner:

So would you call him overtandlage?

Schultz:

Very much more, he was — he was Rector (President) of the school. I do not know if he was already at that time, but his father was also a dentist.

Weiner:

Yes, he was concerned with radioactive phosphorus in teeth.

Schultz:

Yes.

Weiner:

Now, this Nielsen is another one, isnít it?

Schultz:

Yes, but him I do not remember. Maybe he has heard also to belonged to the Carlsberg Laboratory; I do not think he has been here.

Weiner:

Now, here Paneth. [Friedrich Adolf] Paneth.

Schultz:

Yes, he was never here. But he was a very close collaborator with Hevesy and a very good friend of him. But he has never been here, I think.

Weiner:

You find Oppenheimer and Robert Serber on a paper with Kalckar. They were not here?

Schultz:

No. I think it was when Kalckar was there in California.

Weiner:

Yes, itís in 1937 Ė-

Schultz:

— it must have been about that time, yes. Kalckar was with Oppenheimer for a year. Lyshede was an assistant and worked together with Rasmussen on spectroscopy. McKay from Scotland — Majer, yes I know there was a Majer — but I donít remember what he looked like or what he was doing; he was with Hevesy, I think.

Weiner:

Yes, radioactive isotopes. Now, Majer Ė-

Schultz:

Yes. And [Andre] Mercier.

Weiner:

Do you recall anything about him?

Schultz:

Iíve seen him many times. He was here for some time and has been here for congresses. And he married a Danish lady.

Weiner:

One of the few people from France, if he in fact is from France. I donít know. He published — the name I thought sounded French.

Schultz:

I donít think he is from France. I think heís from Switzerland.

Weiner:

Yes, oh, — thatís good Ė-

Schultz:

But the French part of Switzerland, yes.

Weiner:

Now, just a few more —

Schultz:

Now comes to Arley. He worked with Hevesy, formation of milk. (???) And then Bjerge. He was only assistant I think a year and then he went to Polytecknisk Laereanstalt as a professor there. He worked together with Brostrom for some time. Gustafson of course, he is Swedish, Thorston Gustafson. Maybe has been here for a short time. I do not think he came only for visits.

Weiner:

I see. Where was he in Sweden, do you know, what Institute?

Schultz:

I think he was in Lund Universitat.

Weiner:

Thereís a whole group of names associated with Hevesy here. I wonder where theyíre from.

Schultz:

I do not know them. I think they may have been working with Hevesy. Hevesy went to Sweden after here.

Weiner:

During the war, yes. This is still 1938. Itís one man or woman, do you know this name, Rebbe.

Schultz:

Yes. It was a Dane, Danish young man, and he was assistant by Hevesy together with Hilde Levi and he died when he was 28 or 29 years. Atterli(?) was assistant of Hevesy, Brostrom and Koch worked with high tension. [Rudolf] Peierls —

Weiner:

Peierls was in England at the time. He told me about this paper. The three of them had done it together, Bohr, Peierls and Placzek. We know about Bohr. This was done in Princeton, these papers.

Schultz:

Brostrom and Koch and Lauritsen. It must also be the high tension.

Weiner:

Yes, those were the first efficient photographs done of — I know those photographs.

Schultz:

— and Hevesy yes.

Weiner:

— thatís a very important paper, the one on fission. Physical Evidence for the Division of Heavy Nuclei under Neutron Bombardment, thatís the one. Now, these weíve done before. Now, I wanted to ask about Lise Meitner a little bit. She never came here really to work, just for visits.

Schultz:

No, only for short visits.

Weiner:

Do you recall any discussions about her coming here to work for a long time, or as part of the staff?

Schultz:

No, I donít think so. But she was here for some time, because when she was here, she lived there, up under the roof — in a small guest room. But not for a very long time. But sometimes she came and lived there. And she worked with Frisch.

Weiner:

When Rozental first came, he came on what basis?

Schultz:

Not on any basis. I think it was difficult for him to be in Germany. He was in Leipzig with Heisenberg, and then Heisenberg thought it was good for him to come here, and he did so. And went around himself for some time. Nobody took very much care of him. I spoke a little with him and I liked him, and I thought heís a nice man. He reminds me very much of Fritz Kalckar in his way to speak. He might be a good assistant for Professor Bohr. The same day, Professor Bohr came in to me and said, ďHave you spoken with Rozental?Ē ďYes, I have. I like him very much.Ē I had thought, wasnít it good he should work with Professor Bohr? ďJust what I had thought.Ē Because he reminds me of Fritz Kalcker. And then Rozental became the co-worker with Professor Bohr.

Weiner:

I see, and the co-worker was for practical things as well —

Schultz:

— everything. I donít think Rozental was so great a scientist, as far as I can Judge, but on practical things he was very fine.

Weiner:

So he took on a very important position then in helping in the years after the war in practical things.

Schultz:

Yes. Yes, he did.

Weiner:

Now, letís see, what else is new — thatís all on this — oh, Simons.

Schultz:

Simons was from Finland, and worked here until the war broke out. It must have been so. When the war began, in 1939.

Weiner:

Yes, in the fall of 1939.

Schultz:

Fall of 1939, yes, so he had to go back and be a soldier. Arley & Randar Buch. He was a mathematician at the Mathematical Institute, and wrote things together with Arley on — and she also with her. She was married to Professor Tornehave. She was also a mathematician.

Weiner:

This is Eriksen, E. Eriksen in 1940, yes.

Schultz:

Yes. We have met her name in another place. No, it was on a picture, I think. Yes, in the Polyteknisk Laereanstalt during the occupation.

Weiner:

Oh, you pointed her out, she was sitting there, her husband was standing there.

Schultz:

Yes, it was former Eriksen.

Weiner:

All of these others, these are the groups of Boggild, Brostrom and Lauritsen working together.

Schultz:

Yes, at Van de Graaff side of the high tension things.

Weiner:

Then the Hevesy group we see working together.

Schultz:

Yes, it was the Hevesy group. I do not know it must be Carlsberg.

Weiner:

Hereís someone else with Hevesy whose name we havenít seen before — MacClaine? You donít know him?

Schultz:

No. Iím not sure heís been here.

Weiner:

Now, for the first time we see [Niels O.] Lassenís name. When did Lassen first come, and in what capacity?

Schultz:

I do not think he is writing very much, nor did Jacobsen. He did not write as much. They were experimenters.

Weiner:

And Lassen came, did he come first?

Weiner:

We got onto — I think we talked about — (crosstalk)

Schultz:

— we have spoken about J. Nielson who was a medicine man at the Finsen Institute.

Weiner:

You say [Hoffinger?] was an assistant sometimes to Hevesy, sometimes Jacobsen.

Schultz:

Yes. And afterwards he went out to Meteorologisk Institut but it was afterwards.

Weiner:

I notice before we get to Norlund thereís T.S. Chang here in 1942.

Schultz:

Yes. I do not know with him. I think he was a theoretical man. Is that not theoretical?

Weiner:

Oh yes. Weíll have to look into that. You donít remember him?

Schultz:

Yes, I know what he was like, but Iíve never spoken with him, I think.

Weiner:

He was here at that time?

Schultz:

Yes, he was here.

Weiner:

Itís surprising, a foreign visitor here in 1942.

Schultz:

Yes, but he has been here. He was a young man.

Weiner:

Now, we were talking about Norlund.

Schultz:

He left mathematics and physics, and is now politician. Now he is in Folketinget (parliament) or something, heís politician.

Weiner:

How old is he now? He must be late 60s, 70s?

Schultz:

No.

Weiner:

Is this the same one who was a brother of Mrs. Bohr?

Schultz:

No, it is the eldest son of the brother. The eldest son of the youngest brother of Mrs. Bohr, Poul Norlund was director of the National Museum you see, and it was his eldest son who took his magister examination here, and then he went away. Now heís a politician.

Weiner:

I see. Now, the father Norlund was the brother of Mrs. Bohr who was a mathematician at one time himself, wasnít he?

Schultz:

No, no, it was the eldest brother. He was a mathematician. Niels Erik Norlund was the eldest. The other was called Poul Norlund. He was at the National Museum.

Weiner:

Who was the one connected with the Rask-Orsted?

Schultz:

Niels Erik Norlund — He was the eldest one.

Weiner:

I see. While weíre looking in the war period, we can see if there are any new names, like Buch.

Schultz:

He was a mathematician who had nothing with the Institute to do but something with Arley. Ottesen was an assistant of Hevesy. Sigurd Rirson(?) was from Iceland and worked here some time, not so long, Dahlstrom. Euler, no I do not know him. It must be some of Hevesyís Swedish assistants.

Weiner:

This is 1944, yes.

Schultz:

Yes. Then Hevesy was in Stockholm. Andrcassen and Ottesen were also by Hevesy. Koster was a medicine man here in Bispebferg Hospital and Warburg also an assistant of Hevesy. Theissen I do not know, I think it is medicine also.

Weiner:

Now, these — well, we wonít go on to this. I donít think itís necessary because those are all on the biological work that was going on during the war, and thereís one name thatís new working on physics, Jens Lindhard.

Schultz:

He was here, assistant here. He was a theoretical physicist and now he is professor in Aarhus, the physical institute there.

Weiner:

I see. He was here in 1945. Well, I think that really covers the ground on that. Itís Just that I can make a list from this which I can have as an identification, when I make up my full list of the names from the guest book and when I check it against this, and then I can have some identification of the people.

Schultz:

I think you have to stay here for five years, otherwise you cannot do all that.

Weiner:

I accept.

Session I | Session II