Kenneth Walters

McKinley:

I think we are recording. So this is Gareth McKinley, and it's Tuesday, July 10th, and we're sitting outside the Norton House Hotel with Ken Walters. And Ken's going to give us some reminisces of his time in rheology. So Ken, good morning.

Walters:

Good morning.

McKinley:

I guess we're very close to home for you. That this is where you grew up originally.

Walters:

This is where I grew up, and this was my favorite spot as a youngster.

McKinley:

Wonderful. So you were telling me that you went to school here?

Walters:

Yes, I was the first member of my family who went to a grammar school. Those were good years. But when I wanted to go from grammar school to university, my mother said, "Why do you want to do that?" Because all the family work in the GPO, the General Post Office. But it wasn't difficult to persuade her, because she was a loving mother. And I got into university and got a scholarship to the local university here at Swansea.

McKinley:

So that was the University of Swansea as it was called then.

Walters:

The University of Swansea, which I entered in 1953.

McKinley:

And before that, you did your O levels very early, I understand?

Walters:

That's right. That's right. At the age of 14.

McKinley:

And so your father, you say, worked for the post office? Was he a postman or did he--

Walters:

No no, he didn't, but the rest of the family did.

McKinley:

The rest of the family, okay. So you have brothers and sisters?

Walters:

No.

McKinley:

No. Just you?

Walters:

Just me.

McKinley:

Okay. So you went off to university, and what did you study at University of Swansea?

Walters:

Mathematics. Applied mathematics.

McKinley:

Right, so you always knew you wanted to be a mathematician?

Walters:

Not really, no. It was something that developed over the years.

McKinley:

So three years undergraduate back in those days?

Walters:

Yes.

McKinley:

Yes, mmhmm. And then you stayed on and decided to do a Master’s degree.

Walters:

A master’s degree in atmosphere diffusion.

McKinley:

In a totally different field. Yes. So what does one study? Experiments or theory?

Walters:

Theory. I didn't like it and I told my head of department that.

McKinley:

Right. (laughs) But your advisor at that point was also called Walters. T.S. Walters, was it?

Walters:

Yes, yes. Who later became a rheologist.

McKinley:

Uh-huh. So after a year of atmospheric diffusion, the head of department was James Oldroyd.

Walters:

Yes.

McKinley:

And so you told him that you weren't interested in diffusion.

Walters:

And I'd like to work with him. Yes. And he was happy to do that.

McKinley:

So what was your PhD topic?

Walters:

Linear viscoelasticity of various problems involving an integral constitutive model.

McKinley:

And so that was a relatively short PhD, I think.

Walters:

It was unfortunate, really, because it was only 18 months. And I was cheating the system in a sense.

McKinley:

And that was supported by the government? That was a government supported...?

Walters:

Uh yes, yes.

McKinley:

Okay so the topic was integral theories of linear viscoelasticity?

Walters:

That's right.

McKinley:

And I guess at the time, who else was working in that area? Were there other people working in the field?

Walters:

Do you know, I can't remember? It's such a long time ago. Jim Oldroyd was unique in many ways, and he was generating research from others who came before me, who incidentally were excellent cricketers, so Jim Oldroyd's three research students that I can remember were captains of the university cricket team, including myself. And we all got firsts in applied mathematics. And this was the one thing that Jim Oldroyd hated because he wasn't a sportsman, and yet his basic research students at the time-- As I can remember, he only had three, but as I say, they were all cricketers.

McKinley:

All top cricketers, huh?

Walters:

Yes.

McKinley:

I seem to remember seeing a picture of that at some point. Do you have a picture of that that I've seen?

Walters:

Yes, yes.

McKinley:

Yes, yeah. Who were the other two?

Walters:

Let's see. Thomas and... R.S. Thomas and Joans. Thomas was the first, Joans was the second, and I was the third. And what singled us out was not the rheology, but the--

McKinley:

But the cricket.

Walters:

That we were captains of the university cricket team, which was the best in Wales at the time.

McKinley:

Fantastic. Uh-huh. But so did he ever come along and watch, or he was not a sportsman at all?

Walters:

That's the last thing he would have done, yeah.

McKinley:

(laughs) Uh-huh.

Walters:

The other thing that I can tell you about Jim is that he lived in the Uplands, which is not two miles from here. And he bought his house for 4,000 pounds and sold it when he left Swansea for 4,000 pounds.

McKinley:

(laughs) How many years later was that?

Walters:

Probably eight or nine, yeah.

McKinley:

Right. And where did he go after that?

Walters:

Liverpool.

McKinley:

Went to Liverpool, okay. And spent the rest of his career there, or?

Walters:

Spent the rest of his career and was going into work one day, went into a toilet, and died.

McKinley:

That's...a heart attack, or?

Walters:

Don't know, but it was that--

McKinley:

That sudden?

Walters:

He was walking from, presumably the bus to the university, and just died.

McKinley:

Right, very sad. I never knew him.

Walters:

I think he was 61 at the time, something like that.

McKinley:

61, alright. He was a very gentle man, I guess, right? Or soft spoken?

Walters:

Yes, yes. Yes, he was a gentleman and very supportive. I got nothing but praise for him. And should have been made a fellow of the Royal Society.

McKinley:

Yes, you mentioned that. So that was unfortunate that that didn't happen. Did he get any other prizes? I know he wrote--

Walters:

I don't think he did.

McKinley:

He wrote an essay for the Adams Prize when he was very young.

Walters:

That's right, yes. Yes, sorry, he did get the Adams Prize, whatever that was.

McKinley:

I think it was for mathematics essays or something like that at Cambridge.

Walters:

Yes, in Cambridge.

McKinley:

Mmhmm. And I know you republished that at some point later.

Walters:

Yes, yes.

McKinley:

Maybe we can return to that. So super, so you finished your PhD in 18 months and what was next for you?

Walters:

I had a Fulbright scholarship to the United States. Spent the first semester of that year in Brown University working with E.H. Lee, who was a well-known British rheologist at the time, working in solid mechanics. And then I decided to go to San Diego to the state college at the time, now it became a state university. And there, I didn't do any research but just taught.

McKinley:

And you taught mathematics?

Walters:

Taught mathematics, yeah.

McKinley:

At undergraduate level?

Walters:

Yes, yes.

McKinley:

Right. And so I guess that's what became San Diego State University? It was a college at the time, right?

Walters:

That's right, yes.

McKinley:

But only one term, or one semester?

Walters:

One semester. I got nothing but pleasure as I think about that semester. But then I applied for a post in Wales and that was in Aberystwyth. And got it. I was... the original intention was to spend three years in Aberystwyth, and then return to Swansea because it was my hometown, but I met my wife who was a student in Aberystwyth, and the rest is history, as they say. I went to Aberystwyth in 1960 and I'm still on the staff there.

McKinley:

There. So you are still? Okay. As a professor retired?

Walters:

(crosstalk 09:38) I've got one year left as a--

McKinley:

Or a research professor.

Walters:

As a research professor.

McKinley:

And I understand you have to pay or you get paid a pound a year or something?

Walters:

I get paid a pound a year officially, but I never see that pound.

McKinley:

(laughs)

Walters:

But they can at least say that they've paid me.

McKinley:

Yes, that you're on staff, yes.

Walters:

Yes, that I'm a paid member of staff.

McKinley:

Right. So you met Mary about 1961, then? Or?

Walters:

'61 and we were married in 1963. And a little later, for various reasons, she did a Ph-- sorry, a Masters degree with me.

McKinley:

Yes, I learnt that at dinner last night. So that was quite a bit later, that was in the 1990s sometime?

Walters:

That's right. When our daughter was going to a public school in England and we needed money.

McKinley:

The tuition?

Walters:

The university salaries weren’t' sufficient. So I appointed her as one of my research assistants.

McKinley:

Right.

Walters:

And she did a master’s degree at the same time. I chose her examiner.

McKinley:

Right, who was her examiner?

Walters:

Do you know, I forget his name. But he was somewhere in England.

McKinley:

Okay, right. And she told me it was a degree in extrusion of polyacrylates or poly--

Walters:

Yes, something like that.

McKinley:

Something like that.

Walters:

I can't remember now, yes.

McKinley:

Coming back to your time in Brown, so you worked for E.H. Lee, who I don't know, but you said Razz was his--?

Walters:

Rass.

McKinley:

Rass. Okay. What was his--?

Walters:

They used to call him Rass Lee. Nice chap, but I think his best days had already passed, yeah.

McKinley:

Right. And I think the head of the section at the time there was another Englishman.

Walters:

It was Ronald Rivlin.

McKinley:

And he was there until the late 60s or something? Or...?

Walters:

Yes, we had contact for maybe a decade or more after that. But I got on with him very well. Not everybody did.

McKinley:

Right, mmhmm. Yeah, I met him a lot later when he was already at Lehigh. But I guess he started as a digression-- something I've always been interested in, it was the British Rubber Producers Association. I think he came out of that in Welwyn Garden having grown up very close to Welwyn Garden. I never knew it, but there are a lot of people-- did you ever visit the British Rubber Producers Association? [For some more context on this see: https://www.tarrc.co.uk/pages/50notout.htm]

Walters:

No, I didn't. No, no. I've got a great regard for Ronald Rivlin as a scientist. Yeah.

McKinley:

Yeah, fantastic. Okay, so when did you first interact the Society of Rheology?

Walters:

Jim Oldroyd was quite active in those matters, and so very early on I became a member of the British Society of Rheology.

McKinley:

What about the US's Society?

Walters:

I became a member of the American Society and I've remained a member since that time.

McKinley:

And I think the first meeting was somewhere in Allentown or somewhere?

Walters:

In Allentown, and it was known at the time for its jail.

McKinley:

(laughs) Did they do things like a tour or anything like that? Was there a Monday excursion or anything?

Walters:

No there wasn't, but I remember the place. It was-- I was only in the States for one year, and I went to the Autumn meeting, which was in Allentown.

McKinley:

So that would have been 1959?

Walters:

Yeah, '59, right, yeah.

McKinley:

I don't know, I wonder who-- any idea who got the Bingham Medal that year?

Walters:

No.

McKinley:

No. But did they present it at the meeting, or?

Walters:

I don't remember.

McKinley:

No, I think maybe they did it at a dinnertime thing or something like that, but no.

Walters:

Yes, yes.

McKinley:

Okay. Okay so back to Aberystwyth. So here you are, a young lecturer in maths, was it? Or?

Walters:

In applied maths.

McKinley:

Right, mmhmm. So this is the early 1960s, and you started working in viscoelasticity?

Walters:

That's right, that's right, and started a research group, which flourished because there was a plentiful supply of research students. Yeah.

McKinley:

One thing I always remember when I first visited there was that you were one of the few mathematicians who had a lab. I don't know, did you have a lab even in the early days, or did that come later?

Walters:

Well, fairly early on. And I can't recall how that started, but it was quite unique at the time.

McKinley:

Yes.

Walters:

Cambridge, I suppose, had laboratory...

McKinley:

DAMTP (Department of Applied Maths and Theoretical Physics) I guess, had labs, yes.

Walters:

Yes. But there was plenty of support, plenty of research students coming through. And over the years, I had 53 successful PhD students.

McKinley:

Well wonderful, okay. And postdocs as well, I guess?

Walters:

And postdocs, yes, yes. Probably about 15 postdocs, yeah.

McKinley:

All right. So what were the early topics you were working on? I remember some papers on Taylor-Couette flow. Or on instability, maybe with Thomas?

Walters:

Yes, with Thomas. And then with the research student. And people from industry and I suppose it was quite unique in the sense that we were mathematicians, had a laboratory as you said. It was exciting in those days.

McKinley:

Right, right. Fantastic. So when did you come back to the United States next on sabbatical?

Walters:

In 1973. Let's see, Arthur Lodge, a well-known brilliant rheologist, who went to the States to Madison, WI. He invited me over and it should have been for a year, but I could only manage six months because of the research group in Aberystwyth. And I got to know and worked with Bob Bird and Arthur Lodge, and they were brilliant, brilliant scientists and friends and supporters. In the days of the maths re-- the rheology research center, which was world-famous and they were extremely helpful people and got me into the National Academy of Engineering in the United States. They were the supporters, yeah. So I spent six months there in 1973, and went back in '79 for three months, and I saw Madison as my second home.

McKinley:

Right, mmhmm. And did you take your family with you at the time for the six months?

Walters:

Yes, yes. (crosstalk 18:07)

McKinley:

So you had young children then, yes, yes.

Walters:

They have very happy memories of Madison, WI, yeah.

McKinley:

Fantastic. I think they played with Arthur's children or something at the time as well?

Walters:

No.

McKinley:

No? Was...

Walters:

No, no, I think Arthur's children were rather older.

McKinley:

They were older, okay. Super so but Bob Bird must have had a couple of students at the time there. Ole Hassager and Bob Armstrong must have just been finishing, I imagine.

Walters:

Yes, yes.

McKinley:

Did you interact with them at all?

Walters:

No, not really. No.

McKinley:

So what did you work on while you were there?

Walters:

I did a little material with Arthur Lodge, but for six months you can't do very much. It was just a continuation of the work that was going on in Aberystwyth. I mean, there'd be a dozen research students--

McKinley:

Yes, trying to keep in touch with.

Walters:

That's right, yes. And I wrote one paper, I think, with Arthur Lodge, from that six months, but I don't remember it. I remember it because of their support and because of the atmosphere and so on. It was a super time and a super group.

McKinley:

Were there any other visitors you remember while you were there? I seem to remember a picture with Meissner visiting as well, but that must have been your second visit maybe. Was that the '79?

Walters:

I can't remember. It could well have been the second one. I must think about that. Who were the... yeah.

McKinley:

As you said, it was quite the-- it was world-famous, it was quite the place to visit at the time, I think, wasn't it?

Walters:

Yes, yes, yes.

McKinley:

Yeah. Fantastic, okay, so that was '73, then you came back. And were you-- you became head of the department at some point?

Walters:

Yes, I did my usual five year stint as head of department. And during that time, at the end of it, the Royal Society thing came into being for me, and so I didn't need to take any responsibility like that.

McKinley:

Anymore, right. Right. So when did you become a member of the Royal Society?

Walters:

That would have been in 1989.

McKinley:

Okay, mmhmm. But before that you were involved in the British Society of Rheology a lot as well. You were President at some point? [Walters was the 19th President of the BSR (1974-76). His thesis supervisor Oldroyd was the 9th president(1955-57) https://www.bsr.org.uk/pages/former-bsr-presidents]

Walters:

Yeah, President and later we organized one of the international congresses in Cambridge.

McKinley:

Yes, so when you were President, that was in mid-70s? '74-'76?

Walters:

Yes.

McKinley:

Yes. So what were the issues for rheology at the time there?

Walters:

Do you know, I can't remember because interestingly, I had a period of ill health at that time, and when I look back and think that it was at the same time as the presidency.

McKinley:

So were the two correlated? It wasn't such a stressful time that-- no, just coincidental?

Walters:

No, they weren't related. But yeah.

McKinley:

No, okay, and then you got the Gold Medal from the BSR at some point as well.

Walters:

Yes.

McKinley:

So shortly after that, I don't know who took over from you as president, but in the late 1970s, the US Society was celebrating its 50th anniversary, and I know we got a gavel and sounding block from the British Society. But do you remember any discussions related to that?

Walters:

Not really. After my time.

McKinley:

That was after your time. Right, right. No that's still, that's still the main trapping of office for the US Society.

Walters:

Is that right?

McKinley:

Yes, so it passes on from president to president, and yes we don't have a chain or anything like that, but so it's still doing well.

Walters:

I must look at my papers to see.

McKinley:

If you had anything, I think that would be quite interesting to see because it's engraved with a plaque from the British Society to the US Society. Now there wasn't a European Society at the time, but that developed later?

Walters:

That's right, and I think I was the first President [Ken was first president from 1997-98. See: https://rheology-esr.org/about-esr/]. And that's flourishing now, of course.

McKinley:

Yes, yes, yeah, that's done well. So there was the French Society, the German Society... who else were part of the original group, do you remember?

Walters:

I don't remember really. The Netherlands... Swiss, Spanish, Portuguese. Yes, they all had their societies and they all got together then.

McKinley:

So there was-- back then, everybody was keen on the idea?

Walters:

Yes.

McKinley:

Yes, that's good.

Walters:

Yes, and it's flourishing.

McKinley:

And as you said, it's really flourishing now. Yes, yeah. So I know they organize an annual meeting now, but I think one of the first ones I went to when it was biannual was in, I think Cardiff. So were you involved in organizing any of those?

Walters:

No. It was my colleagues in Cardiff that organized that. Did we organize a European meeting? I don't know. Of course we organized the international congress and that was really European.

McKinley:

Yes, yes. Mmhmm. So that was in Cambridge in 2000. And I think a great success all around. Do you remember?

Walters:

Yes, the weather was good.

McKinley:

The weather was fantastic.

Walters:

The facilities were good, and we had two conference dinners at two colleges because…

McKinley:

You couldn't fit—

Walters:

…there were too many, too many for one, yeah.

McKinley:

I don't remember which one I went to. Do you remember which one... I think...

Walters:

No, no. Without thinking about it. One of the colleges was not too well-known and one of them was. I think it was St. Johns or something like that.

McKinley:

Yes, and maybe Robinson? I stayed in Robinson, I think I stayed in Robinson.

Walters:

That's right, yes, okay. (crosstalk 25:01). But St. Johns was rather--

McKinley:

A little bit more grandiose. Yes, yes, uh-huh. yeah so that was successful. And then I think afterwards you'd take over as tradition as the ICR president.

Walters:

(crosstalk 25:18) as chairman of the ICR, and that was exciting because I find rheologists on the whole to be very pleasant people to work with. Yeah.

McKinley:

Yeah, I think in general, the politics in the field is quite small, right? Everybody gets on quite well now, yes, yeah. Yeah. So on that front, I know you used to organize regular winter meetings for the Institute of Non-Newtonian Fluid Mechanics. I never got to attend one of those, but they were always in ski resorts and things like that.

Walters:

Oh that wasn't the Institute-- that was the Europeans.

McKinley:

Oh that was the Europeans, mmhmm?

Walters:

Yes and it was because we had European money between Grenoble, Aberystwyth, and Strathclyde and one or two other places. We thought that it would be good to meet up in a suitable place. So it was always France, and it was always the Alps. And yes, we learnt to ski. But they were worthwhile meetings as well.

McKinley:

Yes, yes, so you weren't a skier before then?

Walters:

No.

McKinley:

No?

Walters:

No, but I became Blue Walters. I was a--

McKinley:

(laughs) Blue Walters?

Walters:

Blue Walters, yes. Rather than Green.

McKinley:

Green Walters, right.

Walters:

But poor by the standards of the other people. But they were good meetings, yes.

McKinley:

I know several of their round robin fluids, the M1 fluid came out of discussions at one of those meetings.

Walters:

Yes, and A1. Yeah, yeah. I think M1. M was probably Madison, and A was Aberystwyth, yeah.

McKinley:

Ah, okay. I thought M might have been Monash, was it? Would M have been Monash?

Walters:

Yes, all right. I'll...

McKinley:

Maybe?

Walters:

Not maybe, I think you're right.

McKinley:

Okay, mmhmm.

Walters:

But it's a nice mistake to make.

McKinley:

Oh yes, yes, mmhmm.

Walters:

Yes no, you're absolutely right, it's Monash. Yes, and Tam Sridhar [See separate oral history recording with Prof Tam Sridhar, Monash University] generated it, and so it was M1 and then A1--

McKinley:

Was Aberystwyth.

Walters:

Was Aberystwyth, yes.

McKinley:

So many of those proceedings of those were published in the Journal of Non-Newtonian Fluid Mechanics. Which was well-established by then, but maybe you can tell me a little bit about the beginnings of JNNFM.

Walters:

Well, a few of us got together and thought it would be useful to have another journal of non-Newtonian fluid mechanics. There was already Rheology Abstracts, Rheological Acata and the American Journal of Rheology. But when we started thinking about it, George Bachelor, who was a very well-known British scientist and did some excellent work in rheology as well as other things, he was added to the Journal of Fluid Mechanics at the time. And he made it quite clear to everybody that there was no room for another journal. Non-Newtonian Fluid Mechanics, no, it all ought to be in the Journal of Fluid Mechanics. So this meant that people, rheologists who were interested in Cambridge, really couldn't join us because they didn't want to upset Bachelor. And instead of it being a joint editorship at the time, as it became in your day, it was just me, because I didn't mind upsetting Bachelor. But some of our Cambridge friends, which I won't mention by name, they felt that they-- it wouldn't--

McKinley:

Too close for comfort, right.

Walters:

Yes.

McKinley:

So had it originally been conceived as a joint editorship? You had originally thought that there might be two editors?

Walters:

At the time, yes. And we-- but it was then decided for that reason for myself to be--

McKinley:

The only.

Walters:

--the only editor, yeah. You can obviously think of the rheologists in Cambridge at the time.

McKinley:

Right, mmhmm.

Walters:

They have done a good job with that.

McKinley:

Yes, yeah.

Walters:

And it's been a success. We've had some excellent editors. (both laugh)

McKinley:

Well I like to think so, yes. No it seems to be doing very well, and Elsevier supports it very well still. And so you were editor until about 2000, or just after 2000?

Walters:

Yeah, it was 25 years.

McKinley:

It was 25 years. Yeah. I remember I think we published the 100th volume or something with you?

Walters:

Yes, and they now have a Walters prize.

McKinley:

Yes, so I was just in Korea and just saw the second one was presented a few weeks ago, actually, yes, yes.

Walters:

Oh is that right? Oh I see, I didn't realize that.

McKinley:

Yes. Ian Frigard, who is currently the editor, was there and gave it to a young guy called Nick Jaensson for a paper on viscoelastic flows past suspensions, in fact.

Walters:

Oh I see, okay. Where was that?

McKinley:

So that was the second one. This was at the Pacific Rim Congress in, well it's in Korea, but it was on an island called Jeju Island, where...

Walters:

Okay, well that's interesting.

McKinley:

So yes, it was at the main session on the first day. And all went very well. So that's an annual award, I think, is that right?

Walters:

Yes, yes. And it's over 2,000 Euros, so it's non-trivial.

McKinley:

A non-trivial prize, no, very nice.

Walters:

Yes.

McKinley:

So the journal, were there ever times when Elsevier felt it wasn't, you know, that it should merge, or they've always been supportive?

Walters:

No, it's... In my day, and in yours, I suppose. They've been very supportive. It must be working out as well for them as well.

McKinley:

I think so, yes.

Walters:

As well as the rheologists.

McKinley:

Yes, because it fills a different niche than the pure rheology journal, because there's more of a focus on fluid mechanics.

Walters:

Yes, yes.

McKinley:

And so super. Okay, talking of Cambridge and rheologists there, did you ever interact with G.I. Taylor? Because I know he was there at the founding of the British Society during the Second World War.

Walters:

I met him, but no, he was past it then, but he had a huge influence on applied mathematics.

McKinley:

Right, mmhmm. Yes and still does, actually. Yes, yeah, still does, his kind of approach. Yes. What about other people who were there at the very beginning of the British Society, the person that we have an oral history from is Scott Blair. So did you work much with him?

Walters:

Well yes, in the sense that in Aberystwyth University, there is a library and it is the Scott Blair Library. So all his material came and we've been supplying all the rheology books and materials to that. And I suppose it's the only one in existence in the world.

McKinley:

I think so, yes, yes.

Walters:

I was in charge of that for several years, but it's now in the control of Simon Cox.

McKinley:

Simon Cox, yes. And last time I visited, he had some of the items on display. He showed some of Scott Blair's books and things like that and so on.

Walters:

He was a character. Have you...?

McKinley:

So I've heard.

Walters:

We interacted very closely on bibliography. He was the chairman, and we gave him a rough time.

McKinley:

(laughs) Why? About what?

Walters:

Well we were just looking for definitions of rheology terms.

McKinley:

Terms. Yeah, terminology and mmhmm?

Walters:

And he was the chairman and I was on the committee. There were only three or four of us. Say four. And they were interesting days, but when I look back, we gave him a rough time.

McKinley:

(laughs) A rough time. But he handled it well?

Walters:

Yes he did, yeah. He was a nice man.

McKinley:

I seem to remember Markus Reiner was involved in some of that, because I think there's an article by Reiner and Scott Blair on terminology or something like that [See M. Reiner and G.W. Scott Blair in F.R.Eirich, (1967) Rheology: Theory and Applications (Vo.l4 Chapter 9 p488). Rheological terminology].

Walters:

Yes, yes. Yes, yes. But those were interesting days, because we'd meet up in London and we probably had a dozen meetings for the big (inaudible 35:11)--

McKinley:

Yeah, who else was part of that? Do you remember?

Walters:

John Hutton.

McKinley:

Okay, mmhmm.

Walters:

And you've probably got 75% of it.

McKinley:

--percent of it, right. (laughs) Right.

Walters:

I can't think of anybody else, right.

McKinley:

Okay, mmhmm. No, fantastic. So I guess coming back to Cambridge, you were also involved in a Newton Institute program. In the--

Walters:

Yes, that was very successful. It was the six-month program.

McKinley:

Soon after the Newton Institute opened, I think, wasn't it? It was one of the early ones, yes.

Walters:

And it was very popular and very successful.

McKinley:

Yeah, mmhmm.

Walters:

We originally intended to have four of us in charge. (Mike Cates, Tom McLeish, Anthony Pearson, and myself. But at the time, Mike Cates took up a new post in Scotland, so it wouldn't have been appropriate for him to do it at the time, so there were just three of us. Tom McLeish and Anthony and myself.)

McKinley:

And Tom was in Leeds at the time? Or was he?

Walters:

He was at Cambridge.

McKinley:

No, he was at Cambridge still then. Okay. Mmhmm, mmhmm. Well I got to participate in that and it was a fantastic time. It was really a great time. And I think you were working on a book at the time, as I remember, with Roger Tanner.

Walters:

With Roger Tanner, and yes, we're looking at it now because we've got our obituaries to write.

McKinley:

Right.

Walters:

For various people. We wrote about in the book--

McKinley:

Yes, yes, yes. So I think you're writing an obituary for Hanswalter Giesekus at the moment?

Walters:

That's right. For two journals [Hanswalter Giesekus 1922-2017; Rheologica Acta (2018) 57 pp691-692]. (both laugh)

McKinley:

Wonderful, well, I think we've covered a lot of things. Anything you want to think about since the Newton Institute? What have you seen in the 2000s?

Walters:

They've got a meeting now, to remember Sam Edwards.

McKinley:

Yes, yes. In Cambridge in September, I think? Right?

Walters:

Yes, is that the second or third?

McKinley:

I think it's the third one coming up, yes, yeah.

Walters:

(crosstalk 37:39) which... and it's, again, Tom McLeish and Mike Cates who, of the British people, have done more with the Americans than most.

McKinley:

You mean Tom and Mike?

Walters:

Tom and Mike.

McKinley:

Yes, yes.

Walters:

I mean they both got Bingham medals.

McKinley:

They both got Bingham medals, yes. So they interact quite a lot with the American Physics Societies as well as with the Rheology Society.

Walters:

Yes.

McKinley:

Did you interact with Sam much?

Walters:

Yes. He was a Swansea man.

McKinley:

Oh he was?

Walters:

Yes, yes.

McKinley:

As an undergraduate, or?

Walters:

No, he lived here, and this was his birthplace. And he didn't go to the same grammar school as I went to, but I mean he lived in Manselton, which is a little village which is a part of Swansea.

McKinley:

I did not know that. No, okay. So you didn't know him growing up at all, did you, or?

Walters:

No, because he was probably ten years older than I am.

McKinley:

Nevermind. (both laugh) Okay, yes.

Walters:

He was a nice guy. An interesting story that he... we invited him to a meeting of the Institute, and this was in the middle of Gower [Gower peninsular extends southwest of Swansea] about ten miles from here. And we had a meal. Like we're having tonight. And unfortunately, we said to Sam, "Lookit, Sam, you choose the wine."

McKinley:

Okay? Well, as a Cambridge man, he should be good at choosing--

Walters:

Well he said, "There's no point in me getting cheap wine." And at the time, the bottle of wine that he chose was £100.

McKinley:

Gosh, and this was when? This was--

Walters:

This was probably 20 years ago, yes, yes.

McKinley:

Years ago, right, right.

Walters:

Which (both laugh) you can imagine what effect that had on us. We were paying the bill and it's all--

McKinley:

Right, right.

Walters:

But this was something I remember from this area. And I can still see it. Yeah.

McKinley:

(laughs)

Walters:

Well, yeah. This was typical of Sam.

McKinley:

Was it? Right.

Walters:

A super guy. Super guy.

McKinley:

And he was Trinity, or which college was he?

Walters:

No, name a couple of...

McKinley:

Kings, Johns...

Walters:

From Kings, you go up, and the next one... towards...

McKinley:

Clair? Clair? Or Clare Hall? Or maybe Gonville? Gonville & Caius?

Walters:

Gonville & Caius maybe? Maybe one of those, yeah [It turns out that, yes indeed, it was Gonville & Caius College https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Edwards_(physicist)].

McKinley:

Okay, right.

Walters:

Yes but he was-- I mean he was a typical Swansea guy, and...

McKinley:

So I mean there have been a long history of rheologists from Wales. Any idea why?

Walters:

Well all you need are a couple like Sam and Oldroyd.

McKinley:

And Oldroyd, right.

Walters:

You don't need any others.

McKinley:

Right, right, right.

Walters:

The amazing thing is that probably Oldroyd only had half a dozen research students [For more details see: Frigaard, I. A., McKinley, G. H., Poole, R. J., and Walters, K., ‘‘Editorial for special issue on “Oldroyd at 100: Celebrating the impact of J. G. Oldroyd on non-Newtonian Fluid Mechanics,’’ Journal of Non-Newtonian Fluid Mechanics 301 (2022) 104749. ]

McKinley:

Really?

Walters:

I mean that sort of order.

McKinley:

Order.

Walters:

That's an order of magnitude less than you've had.

McKinley:

Yeah, mmhmm.

Walters:

And I don't know why, but Sam had a lot [of research students] of course. I mean, people we've been talking about were...

McKinley:

Yes, Mike and Tom and yeah, yeah. But Oldroyd certainly had a lasting-- for very few students, he had a very lasting impact. And name persists now. Yes, Oldroyd-B.

Walters:

Yes, and Oldroyd 1950.

McKinley:

Yes, yes, yes. And his work on yield stress fluids has actually become of interest again recently.

Walters:

Right from the 40s. 1940.

McKinley:

Mmhmm, mmhmm. Super, well, thank you so much for your time.

Walters:

Sorry my memory isn't as good as it was.

McKinley:

No I think we've covered, I think we've gotten everything. And I look forward to enjoying a dinner with you tonight.

Walters:

Yes, we'll choose the wine. (both laugh)

McKinley:

Thank you so much, Ken, okay, okay, I'm going to stop this now.