Jim Hsieh

Duncan:

Okay, we've got everything recording. So, let me just set the stage here. This is Mike Duncan, and I'm interviewing Jim Hsieh, and this is May 22nd, 2019. So, Jim, again, thank you very much for agreeing to the interview. As I said, I think one of the interesting things about the history is to go back and just see your background and where you started. I know you were born in China, right?

Hsieh:

Yes.

Duncan:

But you left when you were fairly young, so can you describe your childhood a little bit in China, what your father did, and where you ended up?

Hsieh:

My father was in the Chinese Air Force, and when I was young during the Civil War between Communist China and Nationalist China, my father, in Nationalist China, retreated to Taiwan, so I went to Taiwan with my father and my family. At that time, I was about ten years old, then I finished my education in Taiwan, including college. After college, served one year in the Navy, then went to the United States for graduate school. I spent one year in Virginia Tech to get my Master Degree.

Duncan:

If we could, just for a minute, go back to Taiwan. So, what did your father do in Taiwan?

Hsieh:

My father was in the Air Force, and continued in the Air Force until he retired.

Duncan:

So, were your father or your mother scientific? Did they encourage you to pursue science or technology, or how did you start down that path?

Hsieh:

When I was in high school, I didn't really have much idea what I should major in. At that time, most people wanted to be a medical doctor because that was a good profession at that time. But I wasn't interested in medical, I wanted to choose some path that was more challenging, or courses that are more difficult. So, I chose EE. At that time, the competition is fierce, you have to pass all examinations to upgrade you from middle school to high school and to college. After graduated from college, you have to pass another exam to be able to study abroad. 

Duncan:

Was the time that you went from China to Taiwan disruptive? Was that a difficult time?

Hsieh:

Yes, it's disruptive. It's not because from China to Taiwan, but during the war against Japan invasion and Civil War, my father went from one place to another, and sometimes we have to follow him where he went, so we went through quite a few schools. When we went to Taiwan, the school only starts in the summertime, so I either had to advance one semester or stay one year behind. My parents let me jumped one semester to go with my brother who is one year older than me.

Duncan:

You had to be advanced.

Hsieh:

Yes, I had to be advanced.

Duncan:

So, you went to Cheng Kung University in Taiwan.

Hsieh:

Yes. That used to be a Technical Institute and they upgrade to university one year before I studied in this school.

Duncan:

And considered a good school?

Hsieh:

From the technology school point of view, it was considered one of the top two in Taiwan.

Duncan:

Was it in Taipei as well?

Hsieh:

It is in Tainan, south of Taiwan. 

Duncan:

Okay. And you must have been there in 1957. And so, you were an electrical engineering major, and did you do any optics at all? Did you have any optics.

Hsieh:

Most courses and laboratory works were related to electrical engineering, not particular on optics and there were no research type of work either. The only optics we learned were from the book of physics.

Duncan:

There were basic physics courses, of course, that you had to take. 

Hsieh:

Yes, there are physics, mathematics, and chemistries. 

Duncan:

So, when you were getting close to graduating, did you have any idea what you wanted to do after that?

Hsieh:

At that time, Taiwan in general is very poor. There were not many factories or industries that you can find the work unless you were a native Taiwanese which they may have land or some basic enterprises or some assets that their family owned. People like us, the outsiders, were considered immigrants from mainland China to Taiwan. We didn't have anything, so, the choice is to continue on graduate school either in Taiwan or abroad. So, I choose to go to the US. 

Duncan:

Why did you choose Virginia Polytechnic, VPI?

Hsieh:

Because we didn't have money to pay for the travel expenses and the tuition. My parents had to borrow money from friends. To me Virginia Tech was the most economical school at that time. Every semester, you only had to pay $50 tuition for all the courses you want to take. Even we are foreigners, we were treated as local students. $50 was all I can afford. So, I took that, spent one year getting my masters degree, and then went out to work. 

Duncan:

So, were your parents encouraging you during this time to go into a technical area? Were they encouraging you to go to the United States to get more education?

Hsieh:

They encouraged me to go out and take a look at what the outside looks like. At that time, I thought, yeah, I'll go out and maybe spend three years, and then I'll come back. But it's almost 58 years now I am still in the US. 

Duncan:

Had you ever been out of Taiwan or China before then, or was this the first trip abroad like that?

Hsieh:

That was the first, because at that time Taiwan and mainland China are not communicating, and there's no way we could go back. Besides, my father was considered an enemy of Communist China. At that time, it was very hostile, so we were not allowed to go back to mainland China. There was no place to go. 

Duncan:

How did you find the U.S., especially Virginia, at that time? Did you have a good time? Was it enjoyable? Was it difficult?

Hsieh:

I like Virginia Tech. It's very countryside, very pretty, and people are friendly. It’s casual and relaxing. There's only one highway that goes through that University. I like that school, and the people there were very kind. Sometimes in the wintertime, if I had to walk to school, people drove by would tend to stop and ask me if I wanted a ride. I also had a host family, and they were very friendly. For the first few days I stayed at her house, and they were very helpful. A soon as I obtained my MS degree I have to find a job to pay back my loans. 

Duncan:

So, you went one year and got your master's degree. So, that was pretty quick to get your master's in one year. So, you did course work and fulfilled the requirements. Then what? Did you go to work or did you go straight to USC?

Hsieh:

I worked two years in Westinghouse in their Molecular Electronics Division in Baltimore.

Duncan:

Okay. So, that was the design engineer? Was that just classical electrical engineering?

Hsieh:

No, actually, at Westinghouse, the division I went to is their Molecular Electronic Division in Elkridge, Baltimore. At that time, President Kennedy said we want to go to the moon, so they had to develop the lightweight electric circuits so they can carry a lot payload to the moon. We started to develop the integrated circuit there. Westinghouse is one of the early developers for the integrated circuit.

Duncan:

Was that specifically for NASA and the space program?

Hsieh:

Yes, it was specifically for the space program. 

Duncan:

And you worked there for two years. Why did you leave?

Hsieh:

I felt that I needed to continue my education because one year in VPI did not get me much knowledge. Also, the work in the space program involved so much materials knowledge. So, I felt that I have to further advance myself especially in semiconductor material to be able to do better job.

Duncan:

So, you spent those two years at Westinghouse. Was it a good place to work? Did you like the company otherwise? You wanted to leave for more education.

Hsieh:

The company is good. Yes, I liked it. We were worked in a new field, and it's interesting. Integrated Circuit (IC) is a new area to me, it involved so much material, metallurgy and chemistry knowledges that were completely not familiar to me. I have to have a better understanding of the material science before I can design better IC.

Duncan:

So, that was your interest -- materials -- and what you continued to do from then on.

Hsieh:

After Westinghouse, I went to UC Berkeley for study.

Duncan:

So, did you have any particular teachers or anything that really inspired you to do certain things during your college years, or were you pretty much on your own path and how you were thinking?

Hsieh:

Are you talking about college in Cheng Kung University?

Duncan:

College there, but also your time at VPI, also at Westinghouse. Was there any particular person or thing that really inspire you?

Hsieh:

Not really. Mostly on my own. In Taiwan, you just taking courses that gave you some basic understanding of the engineering. The engineering school in VPI at that time is not really good either and my master thesis is on circular antenna which has nothing to do with the material or optics.

Duncan:

So, were you a good student? Did you understand the material? Did you do well?

Hsieh:

Yeah, I did well. I think I was straight A student in VPI.

Duncan:

Okay, so, you had your couple of years at Westinghouse, and you decided you really wanted to go back for more education, but specifically to help understand the materials -- properties of the circuits you were working with, the different things that you were doing. Why did you choose University of Southern California?

Hsieh:

Actually, before University of Southern California, I went to UC Berkeley. The reason I went to UC Berkley was because my boss in Westinghouse also took a faculty position at UC Berkeley. 

Duncan:

Who was that?

Hsieh:

Jimmy Lin. He was my boss at Westinghouse. After Berkeley, Dr. Lin went back to Maryland and was a professor at University of Maryland for quite a while. I think he passed away two or three years ago, or something like that. He was a very gentle and nice person.

Duncan:

Say his name one more time?

Hsieh:

Jimmy Lin. 

Duncan:

Okay. I didn't know the name. Very good. So, he encouraged you to go to Berkeley because of that, but you didn't stay at Berkeley.

Hsieh:

No, because after one year I needed money, so I took a summer job, and the summer job is at Westinghouse's California division in the outskirts of Los Angeles. So, I went to Los Angeles and stayed with my friends. In the middle of the summer job, for whatever reason, Westinghouse had decided to close the division in California. So, I have to find another job, and the other job I went to was NCR -- National Cash Register -- to do development work there. During my work there, they have a policy that they encourage employees taking afternoon courses at USC, and the company would pay for it. So, I took that advantage while I worked full time at NCR and took courses at USC.

Duncan:

Were you doing night courses?

Hsieh:

Sometimes it's late afternoon, so it's not really late. 

Duncan:

On your CV, you have done that you were called a Senior Engineer at that point. So, this was, you say, research and development and design of semi-conductor memory, and random access memory. Is that where one of your first patents came from?

Hsieh:

Right.

Duncan:

Is that more or less standard PN junction, transistors, integrated circuit design?

Hsieh:

It's NMOS. It's a very important patent, because to make a memory cell usually you have to have to use two or more transistors or MOS at that time. What we have developed was to use only one NMOS to make a memory cell, that would eventually increase the memory chip capacity by a factor of 2. So we had that patent.

Duncan:

What was your role in that? What did you help do in that?

Hsieh:

It's a circuit design mostly. It’s a team work with few engineers. 

Duncan:

But were you a part of a team of engineers?

Hsieh:

Yeah, we had a team of engineers.

Duncan:

So, did you like that kind of work, and did you think you might continue on doing integrated circuit design, or did you know you wanted to do something else?

Hsieh:

When I was at USC I was intrigued by the function and design of semiconductor lasers. My dissertation advisor, Prof. Murray Gershenzon came from Bell Labs has a deep knowledge of the materials, physics and mechanism of semiconductor lasers. So, I felt that gradually my mind moved towards the semiconductor material and lasers.

Duncan:

Who was your thesis advisor at USC?

Hsieh:

Murray Gershenzon. 

Duncan:

In EE?

Hsieh:

Materials science department. 

Duncan:

And that wasn't part of physics?

Hsieh:

Part of EE. 

Duncan:

And what was your thesis work then?

Hsieh:

I developed gallium nitride material. 

Duncan:

Oh, okay. So, that was gallium nitride. 

Hsieh:

Gallium Nitride (GaN) is a semiconductor which has a direct band gap of 3.4 ev and has a potential in the application of optoelectronic devices including lasers. Now, all the LED lights on the market was using GaN material. Unfortunately, at that time the processing technology is very premature. What we have is VPE and the material came out were all n-type. We don't have MOCVD or MBE materials processing technology that are available today. There's no way we can make a P-junction with VPE. If we can make a P-junction at that time, probably we would have made LED lights far ahead of Japan.

Duncan:

Now, were you working on gallium nitride as an LED to produce light, or as a high-power semi-conductor?

Hsieh:

We were aiming at GaN lasers. If we can make a P type gallium nitride, we would have made a gallium nitride laser or LED.

Duncan:

So, your thesis was on the gallium nitride. Did you ever make it into a blue emitting --

Hsieh:

No, we cannot make a blue emitting, because we cannot make a P/N junction. 

Duncan:

So, what was your thesis? Was it just on the process?

Hsieh:

The material growth and study of the gallium nitride material.

Duncan:

So, this was your interest in materials and your continued interest in materials rather than circuits or integrated design, I see. Okay, so after you graduated from USC, did you have a family at this time? Were you married, or were you still single?

Hsieh:

In the beginning I was single. Then in the middle of the study, I married in '68.

Duncan:

So, you had a wife to try to support. Did she work in any of the same areas?

Hsieh:

No, she studied at UCLA, she was a PhD candidate on Linguistics and Oriental studies. She studied English in Taiwan, majored Chinese and Oriental Language at UCLA. UCLA and USC are rival schools in sports, but most of my friends were in UCLA. Every time when we have football games we would sure win because of O.J. Simpson. When we have a basketball games with UCLA, it's another story. 

Duncan:

So, who were the rival schools? USC and --

Hsieh:

UCLA.

Duncan:

Of course. So, she was at UCLA doing her thesis. Did she graduate with a degree in oriental studies? 

Hsieh:

Yeah, Ph.D in Oriental Language.

Duncan:

Did she then continue to work in oriental studies?

Hsieh:

After I graduated in '71, I went to Lincoln Lab, and she continued until she graduated in ’74. After that, she went to Boston University to initiate an oriental studies department. In fact, it's progressed very well because of the rising visibility of China. 

Duncan:

So, she was there during the time you were at Lincoln Labs?

Hsieh:

Yes

Duncan:

Okay, great. So, you graduated from USC, and how did you end up at Lincoln Labs? Wait, sorry, one question before from your time at USC -- most of us went through as a research assistant, or a teaching assistant. Were you one of those, or how did you finance graduate school?

Hsieh:

NCR financed me. I was full-time engineer there.

Duncan:

So they paid tuition. So you didn't have to do an RA or a TA at all.

Hsieh:

No. NCR paid me for conducting research.

Duncan:

Oh, that must have been good. Very good. Okay, how did you end up at Lincoln Labs?

Hsieh:

At that time, there were not many jobs available and it was very rare to find a job. I sent out about 200 letters looking for a job. Since I was the first graduate student of my advisor so, he sent out almost 100 letters privately. I only received 3 interviews, and got 2 offers. One was from Lincoln Lab, and one was from Varian Associates.

Duncan:

In Palo Alto?

Hsieh:

In Palo Alto, yes. I took the Lincoln Lab offer. 

Duncan:

Why Lincoln Labs?

Hsieh:

I think Lincoln Lab is more academic, and associated with MIT, and also my advisor mentioned that for research purposes, Lincoln Lab is probably better than Varian Associates. So, I took that job. 

Duncan:

Did you have any concern moving from Los Angeles, West Coast, to East Coast of the U.S.?

Hsieh:

No, because we didn't have much furniture to move, and Lincoln Labs paid our moving expense. It was easy for us. 

Duncan:

So, you were 30 years old at the time?

Hsieh:

31 years old. 

Duncan:

Okay. So, Lincoln Labs, that I know of, was associated, certainly when I knew them in the '80s and '90s, with a fair amount of defense work. 

Hsieh:

100%, almost. 

Duncan:

Was there any issue with having you from Taiwan, were you a U.S. citizen at the time, or were you still Taiwanese, or Chinese?

Hsieh:

I actually have PR, permanent residence, that I got in Westinghouse. At that time, the citizenship requirement in Lincoln Lab is not so stringent but still I had to apply for security clearance in Lincoln Lab. In 1974, I got my citizenship.

Duncan:

Okay. So, did you go in with the knowledge you would be working on any particular thing?

Hsieh:

Yes, at that time I had been working on material related to gallium arsenide laser diode. 

Duncan:

Okay. Why? Why was Lincoln Labs interested?

Hsieh:

Because Lincoln Labs mostly worked on space communication. Communication in airspace, and laser diode is considered one of the key components that they want to develop.

Duncan:

For free space communication?

Hsieh:

Yes. So, that's what I was working on in the beginning. But then later on, the gallium arsenide laser seems quite mature, so we have to change our direction and the fiber optic communication became hot at that time.

Duncan:

Who were you working with? Who was kind of the leader of the group when you came in?

Hsieh:

I was in the materials group. Lincoln Lab separated with different groups, and the head of our group is Dr. John Goodenough. In the division every research staff has their own research topics and you do your own research, hardly there are any technical leaders. Dr. Goodenough was head of our group when I was there until 1976 he took the professorship in Oxford University, UK. Prof. Goodenough used different material developed a scheme that the Li battery can be recharged. Now, the battery has been used in all sorts of mobile devices. He is 95 years old right now, but he is still work hard at University of Texas - Austin

Duncan:

And he's still involved?

Hsieh:

Yes, In 1986 he continued his work in University of Teas. He has received so many prizes, medals and honors over the world except the Nobel Prize [He finally was awarded Nobel Prize in October 2019].

Duncan:

He sounds like he was a very good group leader -- very smart.

Hsieh:

He is very smart. Even at 95, you look at his picture, you see his eyes still burst with fire, and he's very alert. 

Duncan:

So, as you were saying, gallium nitride but you went to Lincoln Labs to work on --

Hsieh:

Gallium arsenide. 

Duncan:

So, gallium arsenide -- was it you who thought it wasn't interesting enough? Who decided that you needed to explore other areas?

Hsieh:

Well, I think the division. Since all laser diodes were grown with liquid phase epitaxial technique (LPE) which I have no experience, so this topic may be the first step to get me into condition for future research. After that, I looked at the potential lasers for fiber optic communication and felt that probably was more interesting, so I picked that one.

Duncan:

So, in 1971, fibers were just beginning to be popular, people were developing fibers for low loss, but they were still going to use multi-mode, they were still going to use large fibers, but it’s as clear at that time to the people at Lincoln Labs that you needed better laser sources?

Hsieh:

Yes.

Duncan:

What was the main thing that was needed?

Hsieh:

The main thing was that you have to have the right wavelength for the lasers, because the fiber have characteristics, and for highest capacity minimal attenuation the lasers have to be at 1.3-1.5 micron region. Because fiber is thin, you need to have lasers with very high intensity which only diode lasers can meet this requirement. But no diode lasers could emit at that wavelengths then.

Duncan:

But of course in 1971, you were still at 980, or 985.

Hsieh:

No, at that time the gallium arsenide lasers can only emit around 0.6-0.7 micron.

Duncan:

So, I know as the years went by, you moved to longer wavelengths, but around that time you were more focused on shorter than one micron, right?

Hsieh:

Short wavelength lasers are for free space communication but for fiber optics you have to use lasers emitting between 1.3 to 1.5 um regions. Because the fiber optics requires light sources in the wavelengths between 1.3 - 1.5 micron region many researchers tried to shift it from red Gallium Arsenide laser to longer wavelengths, such as researchers in RCA, IBM, GEC and Siemens etc.

Duncan:

But it's mostly because of those dislocations and the connection with the substrate. 

Hsieh:

Right. But the problem is material. Gallium Arsenide or Gallium Aluminum Arsenide are two or three elements compound, it is difficult to match the lattice constant of the substrate (GaAs or InP) while at the same time maintain the right wavelength. Lattice mismatch generates large amount of dislocation defects that kill lasers in operation. My approach is to create a material with 4 elements, quaternary compound, it not only can match the lattice constant of the substrate (InP) but gives you one more degree of freedom to adjust the emission wavelength. Most researchers did not take this approach because it could be very difficult to make and lasers made with this kind of material may not be reliable.

Duncan:

So, lifetime was really, really important. So, when you started looking at quaternaries, and started producing them, how did you do that? Did you do that with some of the more modern tools?

Hsieh:

Well, at that time, only Liquid Phase Epitaxy (LPE) growth technique was available.

Duncan:

So, I think I read a little bit about this. That's where you heat things up to their melting point, and you just literally brush them across the surface.

Hsieh:

Right. Basically, you have a substrate sits in the growth apparatus, and you have Indium (In) sits in the bins while you put different materials in each bin, once In melted and dissolves all the materials inside the bin you move the melts on top of the substrate and the semiconductor precipitates as temperature drops. Then you push the next bin on top of the substrate to grow the second layer. So, you can have different semiconductor layers with different compositions.

Duncan:

Could you predict what you were going to see by using these different ratios of the different elements in your structure?

Hsieh:

Well, in the beginning there's no phase diagram. You don't really know what you'll get. So, you have to do a number of experiments to zero in the composition you want. 

Duncan:

To get points on your phase diagram.

Hsieh:

Yes, at that time, every day I had to grow four runs to get a point, and check with X-ray to see what composition I got. Yeah, it was lots of experiments and time spent to establish the phase diagram.

Duncan:

And what about the calculations? Once you got some of the points, could you begin to calculate using different parameterizations? Could you calculate?

Hsieh:

I don't know whether you could calculate that or not, definitely you could do some extrapolation if you got enough data points.

Duncan:

But you were doing the measurements?

Hsieh:

Yes. The measurements allows me to see the result of the growth. So, I can correlate the materials I put in the In melt and its growth temperature to the semiconductor composition I obtained.

Duncan:

So, when you were doing this, were you working on your own, separately from the other groups?

Hsieh:

Yeah, Lincoln Lab was mostly on your own, each had their own project. Of course, once I made the material, some of the device people were asking me for my material to make a laser diode. 

Duncan:

So, you could measure the fundamental properties, but you had to send it out to get it patterned, and made into a laser diode. So, you did that with everything you made, or you just did that with the promising structures that you got?

Hsieh:

I have to grow a double-heterostructure wafer for the device people to process into individual lasers. I don’t have the equipment to process the wafer into each individual lasers. Since the basic processing technology for diode lasers has been understood for quite a while, it won’t be too difficult to make a simple laser to test the power, wavelength and reliability once you have the basic structure of the wafers.

Duncan:

But you didn't send every one of your samples to them.

Hsieh:

No, not every one. Only that I considered good wafers.

Duncan:

So, you chose based on where things were in the phase diagram?

Hsieh:

Right.

Duncan:

Okay. Now, where did the money come from to support what you were doing?

Hsieh:

I don't know exactly how the money come from. But I know most of it is from Air Force. Air Force gave it to Lincoln Lab, but how Lincoln Lab distributed into different groups, that I don't know. 

Duncan:

Okay. How did you justify getting the money that you needed? How did you justify your time to work on this project? Did you have to write a proposal? Did you just talk to your boss? How did you do that?

Hsieh:

I don't have any authority to involve money, it’s the job of our division head and group leader. I don’t know how the boss justifies what I do and continue support the project.

Duncan:

But you were given the freedom.

Hsieh:

Yeah, that is the nice thing about working in Lincoln Lab. Financially, you don’t have to worry about you work as long as the research is new and popular and you are doing good job, showing the results.

Duncan:

So, you were showing results?

Hsieh:

Yeah. First 1.3 micron semiconductor laser in the world, then 1.5 um.

Duncan:

So, some of your material that you then would send to get processed into laser diodes, those were then being seen successfully as lasing and at new wavelengths, as you tried to make them longer and longer wavelengths. So, in -- let me ask some questions relating to your research environment then. How did you communicate -- how did you learn about other people's results? How did you communicate with the general area of either material growth, material science, or with the laser people, or the fiber optic people? Did you read journals for that? Did you go to meetings? How did you keep current?

Hsieh:

There were technical journals and laser related conferences that provided you with the up-to-date information of lasers in your area, particular related to fiber optic communication. Once you publish your paper with most advanced result, researchers in different research labs would invite you to communicate with you on yours and their works. This kind of interaction provide enough information on the status of development in each of the laboratories.

Duncan:

So, when you got results, especially later on, you had published them in electronic letters.

Hsieh:

Applied Physics Letter, or Journal of Applied Physics.

Duncan:

And what about conferences? Did you go to any conferences?

Hsieh:

Yeah, I'd go to conferences.

Duncan:

Which ones, at that time?

Hsieh:

Most of them were Laser Conference, particularly for lasers. And mostly for semiconductor lasers. OFC is another major conference related to fiber optic communication systems and components.

Duncan:

So, is that IEEE conferences mostly? 

Hsieh:

Yes.

Duncan:

Okay. And so, were those important at the time? 

Hsieh:

Oh yes, laser researchers in most world known companies such as RCA, Bell Lab, ITT, Sony, etc. were attending this conference. Do you know Charles Kao?

Duncan:

I know of him. I don't know him.

Hsieh:

You have got to know Charles Kao. You know that guy who got the Nobel Prize for fiber optics? You don't know him?

Duncan:

I don't know him personally. I know the name. 

Hsieh:

At that time I have visited many laboratories across the world include Dr. Kao’s lab in ITT. He was the one started the fiber optic communication revolution. Many researchers use different approaches for high-speed communication but none of them were successful. He is the first scientist suggested and demonstrated communication using optic fiber.

Duncan:

Because each one gets harder and harder and harder. 

Hsieh:

Yeah, so why do I jump right into quaternary? Because theoretically there's no mismatch defects during wafer growth. On the other hand, I am lucky in a way, because the quaternary, once you make a diode, it almost lasts forever. People were surprised.

Duncan:

Why?

Hsieh:

Because none of the existing diode lasers aimed for fiber optic communication can last long. But the quaternary laser has shown unusually long life time. At that time, nobody knows why, but later on there is a theory that came out said because the indium in the quaternary has pinned down the dislocations, so dislocations would not propagate during laser operation, so the laser is stable. Before that nobody knows why. On this point, I consider myself very lucky because I have In in quaternary compound material.

Duncan:

So, did you do the testing for the lifetime, or that was other groups that had to do that?

Hsieh:

It was another group, because I don't have facility to do that.

Duncan:

Okay. So, around the 1978-79 timeframe, I guess that's when it was recognized that the new fibers that were coming out with the minimum dispersion and attenuation at 1.3 microns was the place that all the commercial efforts were going to go. So, at that point, had you already made a material for the laser diodes at 1.3, or did you start the work -- I think you started it earlier, right? You had generated 1.3 microns by 1976.

Hsieh:

In 1974, I showed the quaternary laser lased at 1.1 um in the laboratory and the results were published in 1976. Once you make a quaternary and worked out the phase diagram, change from 1.1 to 1.3 or to 1.5 micron wavelengths is relatively easy.

Duncan:

So, at that point, when you could demonstrate laser diodes that was working and that had good lifetimes, did other companies start to go with quaternary compounds, and make diodes that way?

Hsieh:

Yes, other companies tried to catch up after I publish the first paper on quaternary laser in 1976.

Duncan:

You have down here -- it's all gallium arsenide, gallium indium arsenide phosphate, double heterostructure -- that's Applied Physics Letter '76.

Hsieh:

Okay. We already achieved long wavelength lasers in '74, in '76 we published the letter. I think once we publish, people always start to try to imitate. That is the right way to approach the problem. 

Duncan:

Did you go to any conferences during this time period where you gave a talk on the quaternary compounds, and how well they did?

Hsieh:

Yes, I went to many conferences and being invited to many research laboratories around the world. Mostly researchers changed their research direction and adopted the idea using quaternary approach.

Duncan:

Where did you go for that?

Hsieh:

I went to NKT in Japan, GEC in England, Siemens and SEL in German and many research labs in the US and many conferences. Researchers in Siemens even called me father of long wavelength lasers. 

Duncan:

Did you go to places like the English Postal Service and talk to the fiber optics people there, or is this other --

Hsieh:

Mostly it was in the telecommunication companies in UK.

Duncan:

And you're saying that the Lincoln Labs was not able to patent?

Hsieh:

Well, Lincoln Lab can but was managed by MIT. We got several patents on that.

Duncan:

Okay. And then you got to this stage and you worked with Lincoln Labs doing the research. And were you just like a member of the technical staff during that time? Just a researcher within the staff?

Hsieh:

Yes.

Duncan:

So, I know just from reading Jeff Hecht's book that at some point you thought about you'd like to start a company. You'd like to do this in a different way, with a commercial effort. When did you start thinking about that?

Hsieh:

After 9 years in Lincoln Lab, I know I can make a laser diode, and If I continue staying in Lincoln Lab, I will be taken another new topic for research and spend several years on that. If you just do the research not to turn the research into a product for the industry, then what's good about the research? So, I feel that I have to do something different. But, you know, by training and experience, I'm always a researcher -- an academic person rather than an industrial person. So, change from research/academic environment to industrial, to me, mentally it's a big change. You have to be interested in a repeated type of work, have to be interested in reading the numbers. So, that's something that I really had to convince myself. In fact, many of my friends even asked me why I wanted to go into business. My justification was that if I'm going into laser business, I am still involved in the similar things technically as in Lincoln Lab which is different than running McDonald's and selling hamburgers, for instance. Also, running business should give me some management experience which might be important for my future carrier.

Duncan:

But you weren't interested in moving up the ladder at Lincoln Labs?

Hsieh:

Well, there's not much ladders you can move to. Not like the ladders in a big company. Lincoln Lab is a technical oriented structure. Beyond technical staffs there are group leaders and division head and technically there is not much they can manage except they have to be sure that there are enough fundings to support the staffs and the equipment and give staffs an annual review. My mind is not in the leadership either. 

Duncan:

And what about university? Did you have opportunities to maybe go to a university?

Hsieh:

I don't like to teach. I like to do research.

Duncan:

When you had done your materials work, you at that point had no experience making the laser diodes, because that was handed off to another group at Lincoln. So, to start a company -- to have a company to make laser diodes, you had to finally experience the capability, or learn how to make the laser diodes from the materials that you knew how to make. 

Hsieh:

Yes, there are many publications and books tell you how to process wafers into lasers and mounted on submounts. The key is to grow a double-heterostructure wafers in 1.3 or 1.5 um region. Besides, I am not the only engineer in the company, we have many talent people join us later on. Because the industry is relatively new there are many new technologies and processes have to be developed before we can have a salable product that people can use. Often those technology and process are not available anywhere and you have to develop your own. For instance, it is not just how to make lasers but how to package it with fiber pigtail so the end user can use it. The challenge is to place the laser surmount into a package and couple to a single mode fiber and hopeful this device will last for 20-30 years under wide environmental conditions. Since laser diode in general, long wavelength in particular have only in its infant stage we have to create and develop our own fiber coupling and packaging techniques for reliable fiber optic applications. Our initial product were not ideal but people understood, they gave us lots of feedback for us to improve. Eventually, we built our product with good performance, quality and reliability.

Duncan:

So in all of your schooling -- all of your graduate work, and later when you worked at MIT -- at Lincoln Labs, did you ever have any formal training in laser physics, or did you just pick that up as you dealt with growing this material to be turned into lasers? I mean, how did you learn your laser science?

Hsieh:

Well, my advisory at USC came from Bell Lab. At that time, we were constantly discussing about the semiconductor lasers, so we learned some on paper. But in the company we understood the need of the customers and we have engineers to address their need, create new technology if needed, develop the final product to meet their requirement. Because its a new field you can create anything you want, define any standard that fits our need. We tried to solve each technical and production problems as we went along the path.

Duncan:

So, you had your beginning experience even then in doing it. Okay. So, you decided you would like to move into the commercial world and make a company. Did you have any business experience? Or were you just going to partner with someone who had the business experience?

Hsieh:

Well, running a technical company is quite different than running, say non-technical business, department store. Many important decisions were based on your technical understanding. For instance, you can simply and economically design an equipment that meet your requirement instead of buying an expansive equipment to meet the same goal. I do have a partner from Lincoln Lab who is a technical person with few years of business experience.

Duncan:

Was that the one Jeff mentions in his book? What was his name?

Hsieh:

Kenneth Nill.

Duncan:

Yeah. So he was at Lincoln, but he had left to start his own company?

Hsieh:

Yeah, he started Laser Analytics Inc. 5 years before me. 

Duncan:

And so he helped provide the business experience, but he was also a researcher. He was also a technical. And this was Lasertron that you all started. So, what was that easy? Was it hard?

Hsieh:

I don't want to say easy or hard. You have to spend lots of time in it. I think as long as the business is good, nothing is hard. If a business is not good, then it's hard, no matter how smart you are. 

Duncan:

Now, did you continue to be associated with Lincoln Labs, or did you quit and then start your company?

Hsieh:

I quit, and I also get the exclusive license with Lincoln Lab. From Lincoln Lab point of view, they consider the founding of Lasertron is their accomplishment, because they want to see the research results get into the industry. So, they encourage you to do that. The nice thing about the royalty is besides MIT, the inventors also get part of the royalty. 

Duncan:

So, this was an early example of spinoff company, like in a university where they spinoff a company and they get some of the benefits from the patent, but it's a tech transfer kind of thing. So, I know that according to Jeff Hecht in his book, you were also having some advice or help from China, from some of the efforts going on there, and that was part of the plan for the company. So, what was your interaction with China during the time, and how did that work when you were working for Lincoln Labs?

Hsieh:

Lincoln Lab has nothing to do with China. What I say is, Lasertron was funded, or invested, by China. The reason they interested in laser is because they were trying to catch up in telecommunication. Instead of going from twisted pair, to cable, to fiber, they said, "Well, we should look forward directly to fiber." So they needed some partner to work together to develop laser. And to me, I not only wanted to make lasers I also wanted to make laser transmitters and receivers. I need the partner who knows how to make more value added laser products. Since China has this capability plus the funding so, that's how we started.

Duncan:

So, how did you or China make that connection?

Hsieh:

Well, a friend of mine at Bell Lab introduced them to me, so I think that was a good match.

Duncan:

Since this was a private company, you had the ability to take private investors even if they were from China. But of course, at some point, as I read in Jeff's book, the Reagan Administration, and the efforts to make sure that the U.S. had dominance in certain areas, they looked at this, and they said, "No." Right?

Hsieh:

That's right. So, we were very naive in the beginning. We thought this was a good partnership, so in the beginning we developed some transmitter circuit board, and we sold some to a local telecommunication company, but in a year or two, U.S. government said, "No, you cannot do that. You cannot have Chinese people in your factory develop those systems. Because the laser technology is under control, so, we had to send all of those people back and stopped the communicating with them.

Duncan:

So, these were the Chinese engineers that came to make, as you say, those systems. So, they would package your laser diodes into these larger systems, and that's what you sold.

Hsieh:

Right.

Duncan:

Was there opportunity for you to sell your longer wavelength laser diodes into other companies?

Hsieh:

We have no problem selling lasers to domestic companies but there were restrictions selling abroad. We had to apply export license to sell to any foreign companies outside of US.

Duncan:

What about U.S. companies? Were they interested or were they developing their own?

Hsieh:

In local, yes, there was no problem to sell lasers to US companies. Many companies also developed their own lasers but since they were behind in developing the technology, they also buy lasers from us.

Duncan:

And so was that market not large enough? Why did you want to go to systems rather than staying at the laser diode level?

Hsieh:

Well, mostly we stayed at the laser diode. When I say System it only means the transmitters and Receivers and they are more value added generic products. After The Chinese returned home, our focus has been mainly in diode laser level.

Duncan:

Was AT&T also?

Hsieh:

AT&T, yes. 

Duncan:

Okay, so your diodes were the right wavelengths for 1.3, and later, I guess, 1.5?

Hsieh:

Mhmm.

Duncan:

But also they were long-lived. They could last a million hours. So when you were not able to have the Chinese engineers help out, you had to learn how to do this yourselves at Lasertron?

Hsieh:

No, we stopped building systems. We focused on diode lasers. 

Duncan:

I see. And is that what Lasertron did then for the next few years?

Hsieh:

Yeah. 

Duncan:

So, during that time, again, did you go different places to advertise your technical capabilities at conferences? I see there really aren't very many papers after 1981, so you didn't really publish, as many companies don't. So, did you have a research group at Lasertron that was developing these diodes and going into new wavelengths? 

Hsieh:

Normally we were quite advanced in terms of this laser diode, so we're not encouraging our people to publish, because mostly it's proprietary information, so we don't want to publish much. Mostly we did advertise the products. I think at that time, because there's only few major telecom companies so it’s easy to target these major companies. Those companies need the product so the price of those lasers is not an issue. Whatever the price we feel comfortable, I would say this is the price. When you have a good, unique product, you can do that. Later on, of course, when people catch up, you price has to be competitive, but in the beginning you don't have to worry about the competition. 

Duncan:

So, you had a very good business in that way. You didn't have to worry too much about competition or profits, but that did change as time went on. So, Lasertron had to become more and more competitive. So, how did Lasertron keep competitive during those --

Hsieh:

Well, of course, if we're just making the same lasers, it would deteriorate in price, and you start to see the competition. Beside we improved the yield, reduced the production cost, we developed new product, EDFA, a fiber amplifier. That also is the first and unique product in the world market that we made. This product keeps Lasertron continue to grow.

Duncan:

Do you remember what year that was?

Hsieh:

In early '90s, I think.

Duncan:

Now, the Erbium-doped fiber amplifier had been invented somewhere else, and the technology was there. Did you have to --

Hsieh:

At that time, Pirelli, a tire company in Italy, interested in boost the light signal in the fiber without having to go through the conventional regeneration process. They worked with IBM, Zurich developing the pump lasers and contracted Lasertron developing the package. This EDFA product was delivered to MCI and used in the route between New York and DC, the first in the world using EDFA.

Duncan:

Besides the laser diodes. Was that mainly for submarine cables, or was that for land?

Hsieh:

Land, at that time. Undersea lasers require much more reliability assurance, tests and quality control.

Duncan:

Were you all ever involved in any of the submarine cable equipment or development?

Hsieh:

Yes. Lasers production for undersea applications are similar to land based lasers except it requires more stringent reliability tests and quality control.

Duncan:

Let me consult some of the -- So, were there any really hard lessons, or difficulties that you had to learn in those early years at Lasertron? Was there any business problems that occurred that you were surprised at that caused problems, besides the U.S. government telling you, you couldn't do the Chinese engineers and that product?

Hsieh:

Since the long wavelength lasers Lasertron produced were unique in the world we did not have any problem business-wise to sell those products. In the first few years we were so profitable that we never have any financial pressure. After the first few years then we have to focus on the yield improvement, quality and reliability of the products. At that time, the laser market was relatively small and we are early in the game so I don’t recall we have any business problems..

Duncan:

So, you had to do that with internal research and development funds. 

Hsieh:

Yes, technically we have to develop a new approach and process to improve the reliability of the lasers using our own funds.

Duncan:

So, I'm just looking at some of the references that Jeff Hecht has at the time, and of course, he says the other reason that you went with Chinese funding to help start the company is because they gave you a much better deal than the venture capitalists would have at the time, where they wanted control of the company. So, you and Ken Nill went with China because that was a better deal for you all. So, you all kept control of the company that way. Did it stay privately owned then?

Hsieh:

China never ask for control of the company, they only attending the board meeting once a year. Legally, we have the majority of the equities and remained private until it was acquired by Oak Industries. 

Duncan:

Okay, so during the time at Lincoln Lab, and during the time that you were at Lasertron, between 1980 and 1990, were you involved in any kind of larger professional societies, or larger things like conferences, or did you do any other related activity for either engineering as a whole, or science as a whole, or anything like that? Were you part of any conferences? Were you part of any review boards, or anything like that? 

Hsieh:

Not much. I only have chaired several technical sections, but basically that’s not my interest. 

Duncan:

Did your wife continue to do her oriental studies career as you moved in different places?

Hsieh:

Yeah. We stayed in the Boston area and she taught at Boston University.

Duncan:

So, she was a long-term professor at Boston University. So, did you ever consider either going back to Taiwan, or back to China in recent years? Did you ever consider moving back?

Hsieh:

Because my two children were still in school when they were young so I have no plan to go back to Taiwan of China but I did have the idea of setting up a subsidiary either in Taiwan or China. Later, I gave up the idea because either Taiwan or China did not have the supporting engineers, facilities or industries at that time. 

Duncan:

I noticed that in your CV, you list that you were a vice chairman for the Wu Han telecommunication devices company from 1980 to 2000. So, was that just more like a consultancy?

Hsieh:

When China provide the investment capital two companies were set up, one was Lasertron which we owned majority of the equity and a company in Wuhan called Wuhan Telecommunication Devices Company (WTD) which China has the majority. I was appointed Vice Chairman of WTD. I do give advices on their business, quality assurance and management.

Duncan:

And so you couldn't transfer the technology because of the restrictions.

Hsieh:

Because of the restrictions any technology or product transfer has to apply for export license.

Duncan:

How unhappy was the Chinese government and the Chinese at that time when they were not allowed to share in the intellectual property?

Hsieh:

Of course they were not happy but they understood the situation, so they withdraw the majority of their holdings in Lasertron.

Duncan:

Okay, but were they unhappy with the arrangement? 

Hsieh:

They had no choice. Of course, they weren't happy, because when they consider investment it should be a long term relationship.

Duncan:

So, did that company or other companies develop laser sources? They already knew how to do the systems, it sounds like, but did they develop the lasers?

Hsieh:

They have basic laser technology and they have developed gallium arsenide lasers themselves. When they realized that long wavelength lasers using quaternary material is the only approach they jump on the wagon. Once they know the direction, it's much easier for them to catch up.. 

Duncan:

So, was Japan ever much of a competitor for the laser diodes?

Hsieh:

Well, Japan is always a competitor, but at least from Lasertron point of view, we are way ahead of them, and even until we sold the company to Oak Industry, we still were much advanced, at least, in EDFA product.

Duncan:

So, you say the erbium-doped amplifier product that you came out with, was that Lasertron's product, and that was in the early 1990s?

Hsieh:

Yes, EDFA is Lasertron product.

Duncan:

Okay, and then Lasertron changed into another company, or got bought? Or what happened there?

Hsieh:

Got bought by Oak Industry in 1995. You know, we were thinking of IPO at that time. Actually, we were prepared, and talked to a venture capital, and so forth. But a lady that used to work at Lasertron has been hired by Oak, and she convinced Oak to buy Lasertron and that was the story. 

Duncan:

Is Oak Industries a Chinese company?

Hsieh:

No, it's a very interesting company. It's a screw machining company.

Duncan:

Screw machining company?

Hsieh:

They make parts for connectors. They have big machines shop but they are not a telecom company. Acquiring Lasertron would put Oak into telecom market category.

Duncan:

But you say they were the company that made the fiber optic connectors?

Hsieh:

Not the connectors. They're making parts for connectors.

Duncan:

How big was Lasertron at the time? How many employees? 

Hsieh:

We had about 350 employees with $15 million revenue.

Duncan:

So, it was after you were acquired by Oak that you got into the erbium-doped amplifiers?

Hsieh:

No, EDFAs have developed and sold world wide way before was acquired by Oak. 

Duncan:

Okay. So, you continued under the Oak Industries name instead of Lasertron, or did Lasertron continue as Lasertron?

Hsieh:

They continued as Lasertron until Oak were acquired by Corning in 2000.

Duncan:

Ah, okay. And your role during the time period from 1995, you were chairman of Oak?

Hsieh:

Not chairman of Oak but Chairman of China operation for Oak.

Duncan:

So, Oak had different enterprises, and one was in China, and you were then chair of that. And you became a consultant when Lasertron was sold to Corning?

Hsieh:

Right.

Duncan:

Got it. And now, to bring us up to the present, Corning bought Lasertron, or bought that activity?

Hsieh:

Corning bought Oak Industry but mainly for Lasertron's business.

Duncan:

Yeah, okay. So, Corning did that, and then where did Sheaumann Laser come from, and what about from 2005 to now? What happened?

Hsieh:

Well, after 2005, I left Corning and bought a company call Axcel Photonics in Boston area that was founded by one of Lasertron employee. That company was also making high power semiconductor lasers for industrial applications. Later on I acquired another company also in Boston area making packagings for lasers. After I acquired these two companies, I merged them called the name, Sheaumann Laser. So, Sheaumann Laser has both laser and packaging technology, just like Lasertron before but for different application. 

Duncan:

But for high power?

Hsieh:

Yes, but the technology and production processes are similar. Here the laser emphasizes on power and in Lasertron on speed and reliability.

Duncan:

And your son Frank is --

Hsieh:

Frank is one of the owners of Sheaumann in charging of Sales and finance.

Duncan:

Very good. So, during all this time, you've played a role in the finances and the running of these businesses. Did you ever get an MBA, or did you ever do any more formal business training, or did you just pick it up as you went along?

Hsieh:

Well, I don't have formal business training, except I spent three summers at Harvard Business School. So, that's probably the business related seminars that I have, but what I learned there as a top manager of the company is how to make decisions. That's all you have to do. 

Duncan:

It helps if they're the right decisions also. 

Hsieh:

Whether it's right or wrong depends on the situation sometimes. Not everybody can make a right decision every time. 

Duncan:

So, this is almost like the military where the decision is the important thing, not whether it's right or wrong. 

Hsieh:

Right.

Duncan:

So, in all your years going from a researcher in the lab, which is where you said you really consider yourself a researcher -- researcher in the lab, to then becoming part of a company, helping to found a company, and then continuing in that role as you grew the company, and had all these different roles. What would you advise to people who are going through school right now? I mean, this worked very well for you. This seemed to be kind of exactly what you wanted, but did you know that this was what you were going to do? How would you advise somebody coming through school now, whether they should do that or not? I mean, how do they know?

Hsieh:

Well, It is ok if you feel comfortable to be one of the members of a big company or research institutes, but if you want to create your own business that’s another thing. If you want to create your own business, it's better that you have a unique idea or product, a product that market really needs, not a me-to product. If it is a me-to product then you have to do much better than anybody else. The examples are Google and Nike. Google was successful because they focus on its search engine. Much early than Google, Yahoo and many other websites has a search engine but how Google can be so successful? Obviously, they have focused on search of information area and do it better than anybody else. Nike on the shoes is the same story, focus. From a technical point, I still think that you got to have a unique product that everybody is looking for and focus on improving that product. 

Duncan:

So, you had that, obviously, with your quaternary process and your idea to do that. Did that automatically lead you to think of starting a company to take advantage of that? You didn't come up with the idea so that you could make a company, but the company was successful because you were able to take that, and as you were saying, it was a unique product. But, you kind-of developed that independently, and then you thought about making a company. 

Hsieh:

Right. In the beginning I wasn't thinking about making a company, that's for sure. But after it developed I thought that this was a pretty good product that everybody is looking for. So, I thought it was time to make a company. That's true. It's not that I wanted to make a company so I made a unique product. To make a good business it relies on timing, opportunity and luck and has to be market driven. Lasertron won’t be successful if the market was not ready for our lasers. My advice to people is when you develop some product required by the market and jump into business when the timing is right.

Duncan:

So, what was the most exciting thing that you remember from that period from say 1975 to 1985? There was all of this change going on with fiber optics, telecommunication, laser diodes -- all of this was coming together to make the modern fiber optic internet. So, what was the most exciting thing that was going on that you remember?

Hsieh:

The first thing was that Dr. Charles Kao demonstrated that it was feasible to transmit light signal through optic fibers, then many research labs were working both on diode lasers and purifying optical fibers. Every body was excited when the CW GaAs/GaAlAs red lasers and fibers less than 20 db attenuation were developed. Another excitement would be the announcement of reliable long wavelength lasers in 1.3 and 1.5 um and EDFAs that makes the telecommunication a reality.

Duncan:

So, in doing this project, one of the things that I like to ask is are there people that you know of that contributed to this period making modern fiber optics and telecommunications -- people that contributed that you would suggest that we might want to interview, you know, who really contributed, who were important at the time, who might not be on our list. I might not know about them, for example.

Hsieh:

I don't know what is on your list. I think so many people contribute, that's for sure.

Duncan:

Jeff is the one who helped me with this list, so he is the one who recommended you. But I think you may be the only laser diode pioneer on the list. I have Peter Schultz - fibers. I have Peter Runge, and his undersea cables. I have Andy Chraplyvy and Bob Tkach, who are again fibers and data transmission. That may be all. So, I think you're the only diode laser person. Anybody else who is a pioneer in diode lasers?

Hsieh:

Well, if you focus only on diode lasers, lasers emitting at short wavelength (0.6-0.7 um) have been invented long before long wavelength lasers (1.3 -15 um). In the early days there are many people working on long wavelength lasers but none of them were successful. So, if you want to say who is the first one successfully developed the long wavelength laser and brought to the market then that's me. There are many people still working on long wavelength lasers using different materials and grow techniques and produce very good results. You might find those people if you are interested.

Duncan:

Okay. I don't either, and that's part of the problem, but Jeff has this nice list of people. So, just because I'm at the optical society, I have to ask did you ever go to any of the optical fiber conferences? Did you go to OFC at all in the years that you were developing?

Hsieh:

Yes. I went to OFC almost every year. Even now I still go to Photonics West in San Francisco almost every year. But the only thing I find out is in the exhibit I am probably the oldest person there. Sometimes I ask myself what am I doing here? But my company Sheaumann still has an exhibit there, so I want to see what's going on. 

Duncan:

Are you still active in the running of the companies?

Hsieh:

I'm not running the company. I just give some advice when they have questions. I still go back two or three times a year to see what's going on and to see Frank and my Grandson, but I keep constant communication on the phone with Frank and the president of Sheaumann. 

Duncan:

How did you end up here, retiring to San Diego?

Hsieh:

Because my wife, her name is Sheaumann Lin, who passed away in 2005 (now, you know where the company’s name came from). When I retired we were trying to find some retirement home in a nice areas. Boston is cold, so we decided to find someplace warmer. Florida is too humid and hot. Because I have been studied at USC and she was at UCLA, and most of her relatives are in Orange County and San Diego so we said we should look for those places in California.

Duncan:

It's a beautiful area, for sure. 

Hsieh:

When we were looking for this house, this house was on the market for four years but nobody wanted because it was built by Frank Lloyd Wright son, John Lloyd Wright. You have to like the style of Frank Lloyd Wright, their building is very low key, and mingled with the environment. Most people like to have high rise and grandiose type like that of a hotel.

Duncan:

You were saying that Frank Lloyd Wright's son designed your house, and I certainly remember from Frank Lloyd Wright, going to visit either Falling Water in Pennsylvania, or some of his other houses, you're right. Sometimes you feel that everything is pressing down on you. 

Hsieh:

Right. If you go to Taliesin West in Scottsdale -- 

Duncan:

Which I've been to, yes. 

Hsieh:

Yeah, you go to a reception room where you almost have to remove your hat to get in. So, people don't like it. There were four brokers trying to sell this house but couldn't. We were looking many houses in San Diego area, but none of them we liked. Just before we left, I remember in the brochure that broker sent me, there's one house that has 12 acres of land. Well, I probably should look at this land at least. I mean, if I don't like the house, I can rebuild it on this lot. So, my wife and I looked at it and we liked it. We have renovated this house by an architect, his last name also Wright, but has no relation with Frank Lloyd Wright. In my study room the desk was designed by my interior decorator and the coffee table is a replica of Frank Lloyd Wright design.

Duncan:

Very good. But the chairs are much more comfortable than the Frank Lloyd Wright design. Very good. I want to thank you very much for this interview, Jim. I really appreciate it. I think there was a lot of interesting stuff there. So, let me turn things off.