Gregory Tocci

Peppin:

My name, Rich Peppin. Today’s date is the 30th of December 2021, and we’re recording through Zoom. The time is 11:00 a.m., and I’m going to interview Greg Tocci for the Acoustical Society of America. Okay, that’s the introduction that I have to do. Now we get to you. Are you ready?

Tocci:

Yes.

Peppin:

What’s your present address? [response redacted] And your phone number? [response redacted]

Peppin:

Thank you. Your present employer?

Tocci:

Cavanaugh Tocci.

Peppin:

Okay. Is it Cavanaugh Tocci Associates, Inc. or just Cavanaugh Tocci?

Tocci:

We have, about seven years ago, changed the “doing business as” to “Cavanaugh Tocci.”

Peppin:

I’ve got you.

Tocci:

Its legal name is still “Cavanaugh Tocci Associates, Inc.”

Peppin:

I’ve got you. Okay, thanks. And your job title?

Tocci:

Senior Principal Consultant.

Peppin:

Okay. How long have you been with them?

Tocci:

Almost 50 years, since 1975.

Peppin:

[laughs] It’s hard to believe, huh? It’s hard to believe. Wow.

Tocci:

It is.

Peppin:

Wow. And what do you do there? I know, but I have to ask this. Go ahead. What do you do?

Tocci:

Oh, sure. I’m a consultant in acoustics, and run noise control projects, including technical and financial management of projects. These are all consulting projects with mostly private clients.

Peppin:

Wow. Good. Now I’ll ask you some ASA-related questions. They may not be related to you, but I have to ask them, because they’re here, but if they don’t apply, don’t worry about it. What year did you join the ASA, roughly?

Tocci:

That would be about 1971.

Peppin:

Okay. And what was your age and profession at the time?

Tocci:

Let’s see, I would have been about 24, and I was a graduate student at MIT.

Peppin:

Okay. What area of acoustics were you interested in?

Tocci:

Architectural acoustics.

Peppin:

What were your reasons for joining the ASA?

Tocci:

It was part of the fabric of my graduate student relationships, with other students. Everybody in our department belonged to ASA and were contributors to ASA, and I wished to be the same.

Peppin:

I see. Was there anybody that encouraged you to join, or was it just a mass interest?

Tocci:

Professor Richard H. Lyon, Acoustics Lab head encouraged me to join.

Peppin:

Okay. And he was a teacher then?

Tocci:

He was.

Peppin:

Okay. What ASA committees are you a member of?

Tocci:

TCN and TCAA, and I’m on the ANSI Working Group 44 for speech privacy.

Peppin:

Okay. Good. What positions in ASA did you hold, or ever held?

Tocci:

I don’t believe I’ve ever held a position — a named position.

Peppin:

Yeah. I’ve got you. Like most of us.

Tocci:

[laughs]

Peppin:

Is there any particular ASA meeting or meetings that stand out for you as being something good, or humorous, or different?

Tocci:

Well, I just remember my first ASA meeting, in Buffalo, where I gave my first paper. It was the first meeting I attended.

Peppin:

Was that your first technical paper you ever gave, too?

Tocci:

Yes, it was. At least, the first technical paper in ASA.

Peppin:

Are there any ASA members you met that influenced you after you joined?

Tocci:

Well, yes. Certainly, Bill Cavanaugh, who I met a year or two later. I hadn’t met him yet at that point. He and George Maling were then, I’d say, the most influential, in addition to Dick Lyon.

Peppin:

Right. He would have been one.

Tocci:

Right. Bill, my business partner, I associate with NCAC. So, the NCAC crowd who participated in ASA were very important to me in terms of influencing me professionally.

Peppin:

Right. By the way, George and Norah Maling just celebrated their 61st anniversary yesterday.

Tocci:

Wow. That is amazing.

Peppin:

I know. It’s something. Now, have you joined INCE? INCE wasn’t around at that time.

Tocci:

No, it wasn’t.

Peppin:

ASA was the only, really, one. Was NCAC around?

Tocci:

Yes, it was.

Peppin:

Aha. Okay. Is there anything you want to mention about ASA in the past, in the present, or the future, that is anything you see happening, or are very grateful for, or anything?

Tocci:

Well, you know, it’s interesting. I’ve always noticed a bit of a tension between academic views of what the purpose of the Society is and professional views…

Peppin:

Yes, me too.

Tocci:

…about what the Society is about. And I think that’s a good thing, because I think it’s necessary that both interests come to understand each other’s needs. And I think it’s quite interesting that, because of this difference between academic and professional perspectives on the goals of the Society, INCE was founded to have an organization more oriented towards noise control engineering as an area of professional practice, but that’s just my thought.

Peppin:

Right. I agree with you on that. In fact, this interview process was mostly originally made for people who won the Gold Medal in acoustics for some technical paper they wrote. It’s so different than what you and I are familiar with — normal consulting jobs.

Tocci:

That’s right.

Peppin:

Besides INCE and ASA and NCAC, do you belong to other groups, too — acoustical groups?

Tocci:

I’m a member of ASME and ASHRAE, though it’s been a while since I’ve participated actively in either of them. But I certainly need to follow their work.

Peppin:

Okay. Have you done any oral history for another organization?

Tocci:

I have not.

Peppin:

Okay, now we deal with a new subject: past history. When and where were you born?

Tocci:

I was born in Weymouth, Massachusetts on August 31, 1947.

Peppin:

And what were your parents’ names?

Tocci:

My dad was Arthur A. Tocci, and my mom was Yvonne Tocci. Her maiden name was Rioux.

Peppin:

Did, or do, you have brothers and sisters?

Tocci:

I do. I’m the oldest of eight.

Peppin:

Aha. Eight! [laughs]

Tocci:

Yes. Yeah.

Peppin:

Wow. That’s a lot. Before you went to college, where were some places that you lived?

Tocci:

Quincy and Milton, Massachusetts.

Peppin:

What were your parents’ occupations?

Tocci:

My dad was a mechanical engineer. He and Ed Fitzemeyer founded Fitzemeyer & Tocci in 1958 in Boston. Their firm is still operating today designing mechanical systems for buildings throughout the northeast.

Peppin:

Aha.

Tocci:

My mom was at home with kids.

Peppin:

Okay. How would you describe yourself during those early years? Were you a technoweenie, or you liked to play, like we all did?

Tocci:

[laughs] I would say I was studious and obviously needed to be helpful around the home. Starting in about 6^th grade and older, I would disappear with my cousins into the Blue Hills reservation in Milton, Massachusetts. Those were great days, I remember them fondly.

Peppin:

Huh. Okay. [laughs] And what did you want to be when you grew up?

Tocci:

An engineer.

Peppin:

Because of your dad—

Tocci:

Yes.

Peppin:

Did you have any special hobbies or interests before college?

Tocci:

Photography.

Peppin:

Aha. When we actually used film, huh? [laughs]

Tocci:

We actually used film. Right. Yeah. Those days are nearly gone. [laughs]

Peppin:

Yeah. And a bulk film loader. I remember buying black-and-white film because it was cheaper. [laughs] What subjects did you enjoy in high school, if any?

Tocci:

I enjoyed math and physics.

Peppin:

Aha. And were there any people that influenced you in those younger days before college?

Tocci:

Yes. I had a friend, Robert Jackson, who was a grad student at MIT who, after receiving a Ph.D., worked as a physical chemist. Another is Jacque Duvivier, who taught aerodynamics in a program for high school boys volunteered by grad students from MIT and other colleges the Boston area. And in high school, my physics and math teachers in particular were, I think, influential in helping me acquire an understanding of the importance of fundamental physical principles and how they are expressed as mathematical relationships. The way they taught it was very simple, but I thought it was something helpful and it sort of stuck with me.

Peppin:

Nice. Were there any people in those days that influenced you, a —

Tocci:

Well, yes. I mentioned my math teacher, who was Miss dePoyne. I think the name of my physics teacher was Mr. Campbell. And, as I mentioned, Jacque Duvivier, who was an aerodynamicist on a military aircraft program.

Peppin:

What high school was that?

Tocci:

Milton High School.

Peppin:

In Milton, Mass. Okay.

Tocci:

Right.

Peppin:

Now to college. So, where did you first go to college?

Tocci:

Tufts University.

Peppin:

What year was that?

Tocci:

I started in 1966 and graduated in 1970.

Peppin:

Okay. How did you choose Tufts?

Tocci:

I was looking for an engineering program, and it was recommended to me by my guidance counselor as a good place to consider, and I applied and was accepted.

Peppin:

Was that an out-of-town school? That is, you needed a dorm and everything like that to stay in, or an apartment?

Tocci:

Yeah, I did. I lived in a Tufts dormitory for two years and then two years at Trimount House, a student residence run by Opus Dei in Boston.

Peppin:

Okay. What was your major?

Tocci:

Majored in mechanical engineering.

Peppin:

And that was because you had this plan to be an engineer from the get-go?

Tocci:

That’s right.

Peppin:

That’s why you picked mechanical — and your father was that, so, yeah. I’ve got you.

Tocci:

That’s correct.

Peppin:

Okay. As an undergraduate, did you belong to any special clubs or participate in school activities?

Tocci:

Boy, let’s see. I’m sure I did. I know our department had activities, and I had a job for a time in the mechanical engineering department fluids lab and played a little intramural tennis and hiked a lot in the White Mountains in New Hampshire. The job was mostly cleaning up after — there was a professor doing experiments with a silicon fluid, and it was sticky and got all over everything. The technique helped to visualize convective flow in fluids.

Peppin:

[laughs] Wow. Let’s see where we are. So, your inspirational models were your teachers at that time, and your father, right?

Tocci:

There was one professor, Professor Sununu, who eventually became governor of New Hampshire. He was an outstanding teacher in heat transfer.

Peppin:

Wow.

Tocci:

And he was outstanding teacher who made heat transfer, otherwise hard to grasp, pretty easy. It surprised me that he would leave engineering to become governor of New Hampshire. He was a great engineer and teacher, he was so good at it.

Peppin:

Leave engineering? Yeah.

Tocci:

Yes, surprised that he left engineering and teaching to do government service, but he did.

Peppin:

As an undergraduate, did you do anything — outside activities like rallies or protests or any of that stuff?

Tocci:

No, I did not. I was in the middle of a huge disruption in academic life, and I was not at all supportive of it. In retrospect, I thought that politics was important, but its disruption of academic life was not right, and I did not participate.

Peppin:

Right. That was mostly during Vietnam, right?

Tocci:

Mostly during Vietnam. That’s right.

Peppin:

Right. Looking back, would you go to the same college again and take the same major?

Tocci:

I’d certainly major in mechanical engineering, and I did like Tufts, because I thought Tufts had a great program preparing engineers for both design and engineering management. And because of the breadth of its core curriculum, I thought it was very good. And so, along those lines, I would say that it was the right decision for me. I have no regrets about it.

Peppin:

Was it expensive or anything? Did you have any trouble paying for it or anything like that?

Tocci:

It’s interesting you mention that. It was originally, I think, $1,700 a year to start, before I got there. It went up to $2,200 or something like that, and that was sort of disheartening that my parents had to pay that bill. And I think when I graduated, tuition was up around $3,000 per year or something like that.

Peppin:

Yeah. Those were the days, huh? [laughs]

Tocci:

They were.

Peppin:

Let’s go to graduate school now. So, after you got out of Tufts, what did you do?

Tocci:

After I graduated from Tufts, I was supposed to be drafted. I had a friend that I was living with, Jay Delahanty, who said that there was a professor at MIT that was looking for some changes to a FORTRAN program, and he was looking for a student to do it. And so, I went over, applied for the job, got it, and I worked for him for a month making some minor changes to a FORTRAN program. And then at the end of it, he thought it was pretty good. He asked me if I wanted to join his research as a grad student. And I said, yeah, but I didn’t think I could get in. He said, “Well, just send an application in and we’ll see what happens.” So, applications were due December 31, and here it was January 31, and he said, “Well, don’t worry about it. Just put it in.” So, I sent in an application and got an acceptance back two weeks later. In the meantime, I joined the Navy OCS. When I received my acceptance, I thought I would lose it with a commitment to leave on duty in the Navy. As I was afraid I would lose my acceptance, and as I was not yet sworn in to the Navy, I went down and joined the Army Reserve. The Navy wasn’t too happy about it, but the Army had me, I was on their hook. As I joined the Army Reserves in the spring of 1970, without knowing when I would be sent to basic training for four months, I delayed entry into MIT until September 1971. So, I eventually went to basic training in November 1970, came back at Christmas, and went to see the professor that originally hired me. When I walked into his office, he was packing his last box. He was on his way out of MIT as he lost his funding, and, if I recall correctly, became chair of the mechanical engineering department at Lehigh.

Peppin:

What was his name, by the way?

Tocci:

I think it was Professor Berg.

Peppin:

Okay. So, he went to Lehigh.

Tocci:

Yeah, he went to Lehigh. I was left with an acceptance but no funding and no group to join. At the time, going to MIT as a grad student was almost like getting a job, working in a laboratory. It was a little bit different from what it is now. And so, when I got out of basic training the following September, I went and knocked on doors before school started in September 1971, seeing who had money available. And Professor Richard H. Lyon said, “Well, I’ve got his project going in architectural acoustics.” I said, “Well, gee, I worked for summers as a draftsman for a mechanical engineering firm, and worked with building design drawings, so I was real comfortable with building design. And so, he said, “Well, you’ve got the job.” So, I then had an acceptance to MIT through Professor Berg and funding through Dick Lyon.

Peppin:

Right.

Tocci:

Funding was an NSF sponsored assistantship with Dick Lyon. That was 1971.

Peppin:

Yeah. Now by the way, before MIT, did you ever have any summer jobs in undergraduate?

Tocci:

Yes, I did. I worked for Alonzo B. Reed for three summers as a draftsman and building mechanical systems. Then, everything was drawn in pencil on paper, no computers. You know, good stuff. And then one summer, I left Alonzo B. Reed and went to a company that made instrumentation for measuring thermal properties of materials. So, I was with that company, Thermo-something, gee, I forget the name of the company. Thermo-something-or-other. And it is no longer in business. It went out of business shortly afterwards, I guess in the late ‘60s early ‘70s. So, that is my experience.

Peppin:

Right.

Tocci:

However, after graduating from Tufts in June 1970 and needing a job before starting at MIT in September 1971, my adviser at Tufts, Prof. Ben Perlman suggested that I apply for a position with the Army Materials and Mechanics Research Center at Watertown Arsenal in Watertown, Massachusetts. I was hired and joined a team studying ballistic impact of fabrics toward improving personnel protection. I worked there until starting basic training and returned afterwards in the spring of 1971. The building I worked in is now gone and the Arsenal, a relic of the Civil War and wars since, has become the Watertown Arsenal Mall. So, I had a little bit of experience working as a civilian for the Army doing personnel protection.

Peppin:

That’s while you were at MIT.

Tocci:

This is prior to MIT.

Peppin:

Oh, prior.

Tocci:

I had one year — because of Army basic training.

Peppin:

Oh, I see. I’ve got you. Now, at MIT, you were going for, what, a master’s or a Ph.D.?

Tocci:

Well, I started on a master’s track, and then I did pass the Ph.D. qualifiers. But Dick Lyon advised, “Look, this isn’t for you.” And I had to agree with him, though I started anyway taking one course part-time in mathematics while working for Cambridge Collaborative. And I liked the course very much, but I had a very hard time working and studying at the same time. School and work were two different lifestyles, and I just couldn’t handle both at the same time. And that’s when I decided to take Dick Lyon’s advice and stopped heading toward a Ph.D.

Peppin:

And just stick with the — how were you supported at MIT? Did you have a fellowship or something, or worked?

Tocci:

I had an NSF assistantship.

Peppin:

Right.

Tocci:

And I also was in the Army Reserves, so that brought in income as well.

Peppin:

Right. Did you work on any specific projects for your master’s? Did you have a thesis on some subject?

Tocci:

I did, and it was using geometric acoustics to estimate a sound transmission problem. Specifically, the project was to characterize sound transmission from inside a room through an open door into a corridor, down the corridor, and through a door opening into a second room. To assess the ability of the method to estimate transmitted sound power, out of convenience, we used the wind tunnel in the acoustics lab. The lab had a small wind tunnel that served as a corridor, with a hole that served as the door opening to the second room. I don’t remember how the first room was configured with its sound source. All I can remember is that the method provided a reasonable estimate of the amount transmitted between rooms.

Peppin:

Good. Was there anyone in school that was a big influence on your life at MIT?

Tocci:

Certainly Dick Lyon, my adviser Hugh Davies, Prof. Steve Crandall, and Alan Pierce.…

Peppin:

Dick Lyon.

Tocci:

…Teachers as well as had friends. Paul Donovan and Jim Masiak, in particular — the two closest friends I had then.

Peppin:

Okay. Did you ever teach classes as a graduate student?

Tocci:

Not at MIT. I was a grader in thermodynamics at Tufts.

Peppin:

Okay.

Tocci:

But I did not teach while at MIT. I did a couple brief teaching stints afterwards.

Peppin:

Right. Okay. Get back to the military. So, you were draft age, but you weren’t drafted. You enlisted, right?

Tocci:

I enlisted.

Peppin:

In the Army?

Tocci:

In Army Reserve.

Peppin:

Right. Army Reserve. And that meant that you didn’t have to go see service overseas?

Tocci:

No, I did not, because by the time I joined, the Army stopped activating Reserve units. Remember, by the time the ’70s came along, guys were trying to get into Vietnam because after two tours of duty in Vietnam, you could buy a house almost anywhere in the country with the savings that a soldier would make. You know, people were still being drafted, but they were being sent to Germany at the time. They weren’t being sent to Vietnam. Guys wanted to go to Vietnam for the salary.

Peppin:

Right. Did you like or dislike the military service for the time you were in?

Tocci:

I thought it was extremely valuable. I was with guys for whom “it’s either jail or the Army,” and guys that never had clean clothes, never had three meals a day, never got to bed and got up on time. And all of a sudden, for them, they thought they had died and gone to Heaven. You know? They had food — you know, good food, clean clothes. They got to bed on time, got up early. Their perspective was different from mine. I had gone to college and been around Harvard Square, plenty to eat and plenty of opportunity. Then all of a sudden finding myself with these kids, it seemed to me that my college life was out of touch with much of the country. The people here in the north are terrific, but all those picketers in Harvard Square didn’t know what was going on with people in their personal lives in other places. They had no clue what these people I lived with in basic training were looking for. And of course, the kids that I was with, they would ask me, “Who were those nuts up in the northeast? What are they doing? Do you know?”

Peppin:

Yeah. [laughs]

Tocci:

And so, I got a very clear view of a big disparity between what people from impoverished backgrounds needed and what they wanted. I remember my drill sergeant, Ed Mitchell, who was a terrific guy. He was really hard on us all, but he was a guy that I really respected. And I think the most important thing that I came away with is when we were told to do something in basic training, you did it then, well, and completely, immediately. Back here at home, a student that had work to do too often would say, “Ah, I’ll do it next week.” That’s not the attitude that would fare well with Drill Sergeant Mitchell. So, I saw a huge disparity between my two lives—one at Ft. Polk, Louisiana, and the other in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

Peppin:

Sure. What was your rank when you left?

Tocci:

Oh, I think I came out as E-6.

Peppin:

I don’t even know what that is. V-6?

Tocci:

E-6. E for Enlisted. Yeah.

Peppin:

Okay. I’ve got you.

Tocci:

That’s a tech sergeant or — yes, I know, spec-4, spec-5, one of the two.

Peppin:

Alright. So now, when you got out of college, you went more or less directly from Tufts to MIT?

Tocci:

No, there’s a year in between. So, I went from Tufts to the Army Materials and Mechanics Research Center in Watertown, Massachusetts.

Peppin:

Got you. So, after MIT, what did you do first thing?

Tocci:

I went to work for Cambridge Collaborative for about a year and a half.

Peppin:

Who was there at the time? I forget.

Tocci:

Jerry Manning was the president of the company, and Dick Lyon was a partner, and Jeff Fredberg was one of the senior people there.

Peppin:

Okay. And how long did you stay there?

Tocci:

About a year and a half, I think. My work at CC started on UMTA funded projects. Unfortunately, CC lost some UMTA funding — UMTA, Urban Mass Transit Administration, it is no longer with us. And once UMTA was dissolved, there was much less transit work and by then I started to become occupied with architectural acoustics projects. I was pretty young and inexperienced, but that type of project started to come into the firm. As Cambridge Collaborative had nobody senior to oversee my work in architectural acoustics, CC became not a great fit. And so, Jerry Manning happened to be talking to Bill Cavanaugh. Bill actually knew my dad. You know, together they had consulted on projects. And so he said, “Oh, yeah, I know Arthur Tocci.” And so, Bill contacted me, and that’s when I joined Cavanaugh Copley.

Peppin:

So it was a pretty, like, uniform thing, from Cambridge to Cavanaugh Tocci. What was it called then?

Tocci:

I went from Cambridge Collaborative to Cavanaugh Copley. And about three months after joining Cavanaugh Copley, Lawrie and Bill decided to split their partnership. And so, Bill asked me, “Well, you know, we’re going to split. You’re going to be out on the street. But if you want, we can hang a sign out.” And we hung a sign out that said “Cavanaugh Tocci.”

Peppin:

Oh, wow. What a smooth transition. That’s wonderful.

Tocci:

Yeah, it was smooth, although my first January working, a month before I got married, my salary was $10. So, life in a startup is not for the weak-hearted. You know?

Peppin:

Yeah. [laughs] Wow. And what was your title at Cambridge Collaborative?

Tocci:

Yeah. I don’t recall the title, probably staff consultant.

Peppin:

So then when you joined Cavanaugh Copley and Cavanaugh Tocci, that was it. That was your last job, employer?

Tocci:

Yeah. Cavanaugh Copley was for about one year and then we started Cavanaugh Tocci in September of 1975.

Peppin:

So, until right now?

Tocci:

Yeah.

Peppin:

Wow. Great. Did you ever write a book? Do you have anything published like that?

Tocci:

Bill had done an acoustics text with Joseph Wilkes. They were the editors and I and others in our profession contributed chapters. Mine was on building noise control. In a subsequent edition, I became a co-editor with Cavanaugh and Wilkes, and updated my chapter on building noise control.

Peppin:

Okay. Good. When we go through the transcript, we’ll look up that book, if you can’t find it.

Tocci:

I have it right here. It’s — well, this is the second edition: Architectural Acoustics: Principles and Practice .

Peppin:

Okay. Got you.

Tocci:

It’s edited by William J. Cavanaugh, Gregory C. Tocci, and Joseph A. Wilkes.

Peppin:

A little bit about your family now. So, what is your present marital status?

Tocci:

I’m married. Colleen M. McHugh and I married in February 1976. We have four children: Michael, Megan, Peter, and John.

Peppin:

Right. Does Colleen work?

Tocci:

She was a nurse for a short time after we got married, and then once we started having kids — which was right away —she was home. And then she became an advisor for about 20 years at Montrose School now in Medfield, Massachusetts. It’s a private school for girls.

Peppin:

Where did you meet Colleen?

Tocci:

In her kitchen. A friend of mine introduced me to her, and she was from Hingham, Massachusetts. My friend was Xavier Suarez, who became mayor of Miami.

Peppin:

Aha. Did he do that as a way to sort of set you up? Was that why he introduced you?

Tocci:

[laughs] He was — no, he did not like to set people up, but it was a setup, yes. He didn’t tell me anything about her. He said it was a big family with a lot of kids and little kids. And so, come on down for dinner. I came down for dinner and—

Peppin:

What are your kids doing now? They’re probably at least teenagers.

Tocci:

Yes. I have six grandkids.

Peppin:

[laughs] Oh, geez.

Tocci:

Michael is our first. He was born in 1978, so that makes him about 46 or something like that.

Peppin:

Yeah.

Tocci:

And he’s president of a small company that has developed an e-commerce platform for the federal government.

Peppin:

Do you get to see the kids a lot?

Tocci:

Well, yeah. They live in Virginia, and so we’re down there about six or seven times a year and stay down there for extended periods now.

Peppin:

Nice. So, the grandkids are mostly Michael’s, or the other kids, too?

Tocci:

My son Michael has two, the oldest being in high school, and he has another boy, Julius, who is six years old. And then my daughter, Megan, our second child, has four. And the oldest is nine, and the youngest is three.

Peppin:

Okay. When and where did you get married? Did you get married in Massachusetts?

Tocci:

Got married in Hingham, Massachusetts, at St. Paul’s Church.

Peppin:

Do you remember the year?

Tocci:

Yes, 1976.

Peppin:

Oh, yeah, I think you told me. Okay, just a couple more, and we’re almost done. These are, like, personal things now. So, what’s your favorite form of entertainment?

Tocci:

Ah. [laughs] That’s a good question. Entertainment. Boy. I probably — probably music. Mostly jazz.

Peppin:

Nice. You have any favorite authors or books?

Tocci:

Favorite authors? I listen to a lot of David McCullough, and I like history and biographies.

Peppin:

Aha. Mostly non-fiction. Any favorite movie or anything?

Tocci:

Oh, boy. I can’t think of anything, but I watch movies — I tend to watch movies that have settings in Italy. And so, that’s probably a great aspiration, to get back to Italy.

Peppin:

Yeah. When were you there last? A long time ago?

Tocci:

Yeah, 2006.

Peppin:

Wow. And these days, it’s hard to even think about traveling. You know?

Tocci:

I know. And we’re all set to go, and I’m trying to learn Italian, so…

Peppin:

Alright. Any favorite sports or anything? You do any sports?

Tocci:

Well, I like hiking, and when I get a chance to do it — these are more walks in the woods than mountain climbing. My grandson is a competitive rock climber, and he’s dragging me into it, and I’ve enjoyed that.

Peppin:

Some of that stuff looks really scary, that rock-climbing. [laughs]

Tocci:

It does. And so far, it’s just been climbing in gyms. But outdoor climbing, that’s way beyond me, certainly.

Peppin:

Any favorite art, or anything like that? Do you like art?

Tocci:

Photography.

Peppin:

Alright. And would that be your hobbies, mostly photography now?

Tocci:

Yes.

Peppin:

What are your plans for the future? Are you going to keep working for a long time?

Tocci:

Well, you know, I enjoy the people I work with. I enjoy the clients. The work is — it’s funny, I’ve always wanted to be in a very sophisticated technical environment, and right now, I’m doing environmental acoustics, working with planning boards, developers, and facility owners. What I’ve appreciated the most is often working between three parties — a developer trying to get the project going, a planning board that wants the project but needs to protect the interests of the community, and then the community. And so, I’m in a position guarding the interests of all three. And that’s a challenge and something that I find really important. The goal is to make sure that fair decisions are being made. And then within the company, within Cavanaugh Tocci, to try to foster that as part of its culture.

Peppin:

Right. So right now, you have no plans on retiring or anything. You’ll be working there—

Tocci:

This year, my wife has insisted that we need to travel, and we’ll probably be going — you know, traveling around, going to Ireland and Florida for a little bit, and everywhere in between.

Peppin:

Well, alright. Is there anything you want to add to this discussion that we can — that either we forgot to talk about or never thought about?

Tocci:

Well, one of the reasons for staying with Cavanaugh Tocci after I sold my interest is to help train young people joining the firm, and to help maintain the culture of the company. One thing that I’ve discussed with other business owners is the importance of culture in a company. Small engineering firms die every day because there’s a lack of culture, a lack of advancement and promised continuity in the company. And that’s something that Bill and I protected and why the firm has lasted as long as it has with as little turnover as it has. So, by staying at least part time, I hope to continue the fine professional environment that Bill and I have built. And of course, I enjoy the work. I enjoy the relationships that we have developed. The thing that is disappointing is that it’s been so hard to hire minorities and women with an interest in our work. We’ve had only five women technical staff working with us over nearly 50 years, and that’s been a kind of a disappointment.

Peppin:

Yeah.

Tocci:

Yeah. Our contacts for hiring really have largely been through ASA, so we’re looking forward to ASA’s growth in women and minority membership in our technical area in order to help diversify the firm.

Peppin:

Well, I’ve noticed — I’ve been to a couple of meetings, pre-pandemic, anyway, where there seemed to be a couple of more women on board. I don’t know who they are, because they’re so much younger than me. You know, they’re a different age group. But there seemed to be some more around. So, maybe it’s getting there.

Tocci:

Yeah.

Peppin:

Alright. Well, so here’s the story… [discussion of post-interview process].