George Withbroe

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ORAL HISTORIES
Interviewed by
Stephen Neal
Interview date
Location
Stillwater, Minnesota
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Interview of George Withbroe by Stephen Neal on August 8, 2017,
Niels Bohr Library & Archives, American Institute of Physics,
College Park, MD USA,
www.aip.org/history-programs/niels-bohr-library/oral-histories/48424

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Abstract

Interview with George Withbroe, retired science program director at NASA. Withbroe provides an overview of his childhood in Wisconsin where he enjoyed hunting and archery with his family. He discusses his undergraduate studies at MIT, which he remembers as being a highly competitive environment. Withbroe explains the impact of Sputnik on his interest in space science, leading him to pursue graduate studies in astronomy at the University of Michigan. He recalls discovering the joy of teaching during this time, as well as a memorable summer job at the NASA Lewis Research Center (now Glenn Research Center). Withbroe then describes his postdoctoral position at Harvard, working on the satellite program and the Orbiting Solar Observatories. He recounts his transition to the Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory and his involvement in Skylab. Withbroe discusses going back to Harvard where he served as director of the Solar and Stellar Physics Division, before moving to NASA as the Director of the Space Physics Division. Withbroe covers topics such as securing funding for research, collaborations with the international scientific community, and the importance of diversity in science. He discusses his retirement from NASA and continuing his research at George Mason University. The interview concludes with Withbroe’s reflections on the many advisory committees he has served on, as well as his thoughts on the relationship between religion and science. 

Transcript

Neal:

All right. This an oral history interview with Dr. George Withbroe. The interviewer is Stephen Neal at the American Institute of Physics. It is August 8, 2017, and we are in Stillwater, Minnesota. Well, thank you again, Dr. Withbroe, for agreeing to do this.

Withbroe:

George.

Neal:

George, yeah. Okay. George from now on. So I know that you were born in Green Bay in 1939.

Withbroe:

’38, actually.

Neal:

Oh, 1938. Okay. But I wondered if you could tell me a little bit more about your early life in particular—your parents, what they did and their education.

Withbroe:

Okay. My parents… My father was a blue-collar worker, sheet metal roofing, and he owned the business. My mother was a stenographer for the state unemployment commission for most of the time that I was a kid. I have one sister who is two years younger than me. My parents both finished high school, and that’s as far as they went. My father regretted it, but he came from a, you know, basically middle-class, maybe lower-middle-class family. So he had no opportunity to go to college. He always regretted it, and he wanted his kids to go to college and they did. My father was an avid reader. That’s one thing I learned from him, self-education. He was a self-educated person. Avid hunter. We were all hunters in our family—hunting, fishing, and archery. I guess one of my fondest memories from when I was a kid was we went to archery tournaments all over the state of Wisconsin. You always saw the same people there because it was a family event, so there were the same kids there to play with.

Neal:

Yeah. Well, that’s very interesting. What kinds of things did your father read?

Withbroe:

Mostly non-fiction. He basically was… As I say, he was a self-educated man. He was very interested in politics, but he just read everything. I just remember… Like he read the Koran from cover to cover, even though he was not a religious… He was a religious man, but didn't go to church.

Neal:

And what about the rest of your family, your mother?

Withbroe:

My mother… I guess you’d say she’s a classic middle-class wife and mother. Which one was the smarter of the two? I don't know. They’re both smart. My dad was the one who instilled the interest in learning.

Neal:

Do you have any memories of that interest at a young age, what things he encouraged you to do?

Withbroe:

Well, enjoy life is one of the things. Well, like going to the archery tournaments, you met people, because my dad was an extrovert, which I am not. So it was fun to watch him interact with people because he was a great… I mean he could have been a good politician. He just had that natural ability to deal with people. Okay.

Neal:

No, no. Please.

Withbroe:

Where did I get my interest in science and stuff? That was school.

Neal:

How did it come about?

Withbroe:

Well, it turned out school was always very easy for me, and I did well at it, and when you do well at a subject, you tend to want to… You look for what you're successful at and try to do that. I’ve been thinking about this. One memory I remember most is eighth grade science class when Mr. McCormick said, “How do we know there are electrons? We can't see them. We can't smell them. We can't touch them. How do we know they’re there?” That just fascinated me. How do we learn all this stuff about stuff you can't see? And from then on I was hooked.

Neal:

Do you remember the explanation?

Withbroe:

No, I don't remember the explanation. But I always liked math and I was good at it.

Neal:

So you liked math and science really interested you, at least since eighth grade.

Withbroe:

Yes.

Neal:

Were there other school subjects that interested you, other teachers that were influential?

Withbroe:

Well, math and science. English, because I soon recognized you have to communicate if you're going to go into science, and so I paid attention in English. One of my passions is as a runner, and so… Well, I’ll get to it later. Like I was conference champion in the quarter mile, so I was one of the stalwarts on the track team and the anchor of the relay team. So the combination of athletics and study, you know, being a student, I carried on to MIT where I was a co-captain of the track team.

Neal:

Oh, wow. Okay.

Withbroe:

And when you're at a place like MIT which is a high-pressure school, it’s good to have something that’s totally different, which athletics was the thing that did it for me. I don't know if I’d have survived MIT if it hadn't been for that.

Neal:

Yeah. I think I saw that you were… You said you did very well in school. I believe you were the salutatorian?

Withbroe:

I was the salutatorian. I got two Bs in Latin and that sunk me.

Neal:

I’m curious. Did the Latin ever come up in your later career?

Withbroe:

No. I took Latin because it would improve your vocabulary.

Neal:

All right. Very interesting. Did the interest in archery continue?

Withbroe:

No. Once I left home, hunting… Well, I did some hunting. I kept my shotgun until I gave it to one of my grandsons now. In our early married years, I had a friend from church that we used to go bird hunting together.

Neal:

What in particular made you decide on physics versus, say, biology, if you had this outdoor interest?

Withbroe:

Okay. When I went to MIT, my dad wanted me to be an engineer because that’s the only… I think that he knew. But I found that I loved physics. But then, as you realize MIT is… I mean, here I am from a blue-collar family. Most of my classmates went to private schools and came from wealthy families, so I was an outlier. I was there on scholarship, full ride. I soon would learn in physics there are a lot of people that are smarter than me. I’d taken an elementary astronomy course my first year there, just a survey course. That’s fascinating! So when I graduated MIT, I decided to become an astronomer rather than a physicist because as I say, the physicists… There are too many smart guys in that field. Well, then it was guys. There weren't very many women.

Neal:

Yeah, and actually let’s talk about that, then. What do you remember from MIT, your years there?

Withbroe:

I hated MIT.

Neal:

Okay!

Withbroe:

The only thing that saved me was track and cross country. Because it was so high pressure, I felt I didn't really learn. When I got to graduate school, Michigan, then I thought… I mean I’d learned because they rammed down my throat, not because I enjoyed it. When I got to Michigan, then I enjoyed learning in graduate school. That was an absolute joy.

Neal:

So can you describe the pressure, how the curriculum worked and what made you feel this way?

Withbroe:

I belonged to a fraternity, and we were last on campus out of twenty-seven fraternities academically. Then the national came and says, “What do you do? Do you guys get stupid pledges? Why are you so bad?” So we went around the room and asked everybody what their rank was in high school. First, second, first, second. Every kid in the room, every young man in the room, was either first or second in his high school class, except one guy was tenth. He was from Evanston, Illinois, one of those big, top-ranked colleges. The national guy went, “Oh.” The competition is rather keen.

Neal:

So MIT was just full of smart people and very, very competitive.

Withbroe:

Yes. Too competitive, and they didn't make learning fun, which I learned in graduate school, which when I had students, I had to make sure that learning is fun. It’s an enjoyable experience; it’s not torture.

Neal:

Mm-hmm. Before we move onto that, I want to just follow up. You said you got a scholarship. I believe it’s the Alfred Sloan scholarship.

Withbroe:

Yeah, yeah.

Neal:

Do you remember how that came about?

Withbroe:

Oh, because in high school I was sort of Mr. Everything. I was second in the class, a conference champion runner, president of the student council, president of two other clubs, editor of the school newspaper. I was, in some sense, the superstar of the class, and those are the kind of people that get Alfred P. Sloan… I had a Sloan Fellowship from Caltech. I could have gone to either MIT or Caltech, but I figure if MIT is bad, Caltech’s worse.

Neal:

Were there other universities you considered?

Withbroe:

No, those are the only… Well, I put Wisconsin in for my safe school. I had that young ego—you know, “Oh, how can they not take me?” Then when I got to MIT, “Oh… There are a lot of very smart people in the world, smarter than me!”

Neal:

And you thought MIT would actually be easier or more conducive than Caltech?

Withbroe:

Yeah. Well, first of all, it had a strong engineering program. I figured I wanted to have maximum opportunity for what I went into, and I figured Caltech had a narrower set of options than MIT did.

Neal:

Okay. So even then you weren't certain on engineering.

Withbroe:

No, I wasn’t certain. Well, I soon figured out I wanted to go into science. I was a physics major from the beginning.

Neal:

Okay. So you didn't like MIT, but you obviously got through it. Were there any teachers that you did enjoy or any memorable experiences academically?

Withbroe:

Well, some of the lecturers were superb. My thesis advisor was an incredibly nice guy.

Neal:

Do you remember his name?

Withbroe:

Nottingham, I think was his name. He was an experimental physicist, so I did an experimental physics. He was just an incredibly nice guy, and his whole team was nice. His post-docs were nice. They were just… That was one of my enjoyable experiences at MIT.

Neal:

So it was sort of a refuge from the rest.

Withbroe:

And the interesting thing is the lab… In retrospect, the lab was in the old barracks building where during World War II they had a lot of military people there. So they had these temporary quarters they put up for military people to make more room for them. Those were still there when I was there. That’s where I did my experimental work, in this creaky, old, wobbly—

Neal:

Intended to be a temporary place.

Withbroe:

Yes.

Neal:

Do you remember what your thesis was or what sorts of experiments you did?

Withbroe:

Voltage characteristics of germanium diodes.

Neal:

Okay, and that, I’m imagining in the… So this would have been in 1961?

Withbroe:

Well, ’61 is when I graduated.

Neal:

Yeah. So around 1960. Were those… It sounds like it would have been a relatively new technology at that point.

Withbroe:

Well, solid state physics was coming along.

Neal:

Exactly.

Withbroe:

In fact, when I was applying for jobs after my senior year, I went to several solids—IBM and the big electronics people.

Neal:

Mm-hmm. Before we move on, one thing I wanted to ask about is sort of the general culture of science in universities at this time. One obviously important event that happened right when you were going to university was Sputnik, and I was wondering if you remember anything about that.

Withbroe:

Oh, I remember that because ’57 was my first year at MIT, and when Sputnik went up, I was elated. I mean space is where I’m going. I’m going into the space program, even though it hadn't been built yet, but I knew there was going to be one, that it was such a revolutionary event. I remember one of the professors saying in a lecture, “Any of you guys want to go into the space program? We’re not interested. We want real physicists here, not people that are going to go play around in the space program,” because he didn't consider that real science.

Neal:

So that was the divide between applications and theory or—?

Withbroe:

Well, “If it’s so popular, it must not be good” was almost the attitude.

Neal:

Mm-hmm. Would you say that was a common attitude at MIT or—?

Withbroe:

Well, nobody really knew where the space program was going, but one of my professors my senior year was one of the first guys to put experiments on satellites.

Neal:

Ah. Do you remember who that was?

Withbroe:

Bruno Rossi.

Neal:

Oh, yes.

Withbroe:

I found him fascinating. Fascinating guy. He was brilliant. And that course I took from him, I thought that was really… I said, “Boy, I want to go to graduate school.”

Neal:

Do you remember what the course was?

Withbroe:

Not… I don't remember at all. Oh, it was basically space physics.

Neal:

Okay. Yes, I know he was—

Withbroe:

Which I ended up doing.

Neal:

So clearly you did enjoy it. Yeah, and so were you at all worried that it was the Soviets that put up the first satellite, or just the fact that it was up?

Withbroe:

It was up. I didn't care who did it. The fact that it was up was the key thing.

Neal:

You said that’s what you wanted to do. Did you follow the development of NASA and plan your career in any way—

Withbroe:

Well, I didn't plan my career. First of all, I said, “I’ve got to get a PhD.” Obviously you can't do anything in science unless you have a doctor’s degree. Well, you can, but you’ve got to be really good to do without a degree.

Neal:

Sure.

Withbroe:

I know some fantastic physicists who didn't have degrees. So I figured I had to go to graduate school.

Neal:

So you figured you had to go to graduate school, and how did you decide on Michigan?

Withbroe:

Oh. Well, because I came from Wisconsin, I’m going to go to Wisconsin, and they turned me down. I only applied to Wisconsin. My thesis advisor said, “You’d better apply to more schools.” I says, “Oh, no. I’m coming from MIT!” You know, even though I was a B student at MIT, not a star, I said, “I’ll get in,” and they turned me down. So the summer of ’61 I was sitting there. “What do I do now?”

Neal:

And what did you decide?

Withbroe:

So I said… I remember my professor mentioned Michigan. He said, “You know, there’s a neat guy at Michigan, Lawrence Aller.” I remembered that, so I applied to Michigan and I applied to the University of Chicago. I got into both schools, which at the time I thought were actually better schools than Wisconsin. Which is not true, but I felt that way. So I remember my professor saying Michigan had these neat guys, so I went there, and that was the best move I made in my life.

Neal:

So this was… Was there a gap because you first didn't get into Wisconsin and then…?

Withbroe:

No, that summer.

Neal:

Oh, it was that summer.

Withbroe:

Because Wisconsin basically said, “Poo-poo for MIT.” Both Michigan and Chicago said, “Oh, you went to MIT. We’ll give you an assistantship if you come.” They did that in the summer! So they both offered me assistantships, so they had a totally different attitude towards MIT than Wisconsin did at that time.

Neal:

Yeah, and so as you said, it clearly worked out for you. What do you remember from first going to Michigan? What do you remember about the start of your graduate career?

Withbroe:

Well, first of all because I was a teaching assistant, I learned a little bit about teaching, which was…I learned that I really enjoyed doing that. That was an enjoyable experience that was sort of a challenge. You're standing up there. You're only a year or two older than most of the kids in the room. Kids—I shouldn't say kids. Young men and women in the room. Well, what am I doing trying to teach them when I’m basically the same level as they are, only I happen to have a bachelor’s degree? I remember that feeling. But I enjoyed it.

Neal:

What were you teaching?

Withbroe:

I was the lab instructor. The astronomy program at Michigan, there was a fairly famous—Hazel Losh—I think that’s her name—was famous because she had an elementary astronomy course, and at Michigan, everybody had to take a survey course of some kind. Astronomy was it and she taught it. What was remarkable about it is she was a spinster, but she loved athletics. So if you were an athlete, the rumor was A is for athlete, B is for boy, C is for coed, unless she happens to be a girlfriend of an athlete. [Laughter] That was the rumor. But I mean here I am dealing with Big Ten athletes—I mean really. Cazzie Russell was one of my students. He went on to the NBA, became a star in the NBA. He was sort of like my worst student, and I had to struggle to make sure he passed. The best student was a linebacker on the football team. This is a Big Ten championship football team, which means he’s… Really, to be a linebacker, you’ve got to be smart, and he was a pleasure to teach.

Neal:

So this course attracted all sorts of athletes, and they apparently ran the gamut as types of students.

Withbroe:

Yes.

Neal:

So you’re a lab instructor for astronomy. What were the labs like, or what was teaching like?

Withbroe:

Oh, you know, we had telescope time, which the students loved. I still remember we had a 10-inch refractor, and a coed—that’s what they were called then. It’s kind of sexist. Having daughters, I can appreciate that! This young woman—we’re looking at Saturn through a telescope. Have you ever seen Saturn through a telescope?

Neal:

Mm-hmm.

Withbroe:

It looks three-dimensional, and this young woman just says, “Oooh…” She was so overwhelmed like it was poetry or something like that, and of course, all the guys go, “Oooh,” you know, mocking her. But I thought she understood. So that was fun, showing the planets and where every little star was and stuff like that. It was just a lot of fun.

Neal:

Mm-hmm. Did you… I’m imagining at this point there were few female graduates in the astronomy program.

Withbroe:

Yeah, there was.

Neal:

Oh, there were some?

Withbroe:

Oh… only a couple.

Neal:

Okay, and since we’re talking about it, do you remember the general culture of science at this point around that time period?

Withbroe:

Well, throughout my history, I don't like… I very early in my career realized if you want to have the maximum scientific output, you’ve got to have maximum diversity. You’ve got to have people coming from other backgrounds, and I was an example. Coming from a blue-collar background, I brought something different to science than somebody who comes from a silver spoon background. You just have a different attitude that affects how you do science, and so I felt it should be sexless, so to speak, gender neutral. It bothered me throughout most of my career that the women’s side was not represented the way it should be.

Neal:

Very interesting. Do you remember any other people from diverse backgrounds or in particular where you saw that these different ideas and different backgrounds affected their science?

Withbroe:

I don't think I actually noticed it experimentally. It was just an idea of mine. But this led to when I was at NASA that I got in the historically black college… we had a historically black college program that I got into—again, because I wanted to do what I could to increase diversity.

Neal:

Very interesting. And then I believe I saw that you spent your first summer after graduate school at the NASA Lewis Research Center, or was that before graduate school?

Withbroe:

I think it was in—while I was in graduate school, I did a summer—

Neal:

Yeah. Sorry. Your first summer of graduate school.

Withbroe:

Yeah, I spent it at the Lewis Research Center.

Neal:

Mm-hmm. I wondered if you could tell me a little bit about what you did there and that experience.

Withbroe:

This is when the ion engines were coming along. Are you familiar with an ion engine?

Neal:

Yeah, yeah.

Withbroe:

I was testing ion engines.

Neal:

Oh, wow!

Withbroe:

I always remember the head guy of the program was a former wrestler, heavyweight wrestler, Pan-Am Championships kind of wrestler. So you didn't mess with him! He was a really nice guy.

Neal:

Yeah. I guess I’m curious. How did you find that position? How did you get involved with that?

Withbroe:

Let’s see. Okay. Oh, they just advertised, and so I just applied because graduate student, you know, was… You could sign up for summer jobs at various places, and NASA center is one place and I said, “Well, okay. That’s close by,” so that’s where I went.

Neal:

Very cool. Did the—

Withbroe:

And I got paid, which was nice!

Neal:

Yeah. As a graduate student, I understand the importance of that. Did the contacts or anything you did there have an effect later in your career?

Withbroe:

Not really. I never saw any of those people again, but I liked the atmosphere. The atmosphere at the center I really liked. You know, people working, trying to… It sounds corny. The secrets of the universe, they’re trying to do it.

Neal:

This was also sort of right at the start of the space race.

Withbroe:

Yes.

Neal:

Was there a certain feeling that this was important for the nation or important for the world in general or…?

Withbroe:

Well, yeah. Being an athlete, I did competitive and I felt we should be number one.

Neal:

Absolutely. So that was your first summer, and you continued being a teaching assistant.

Withbroe:

Yeah.

Neal:

Was that for all four years of—?

Withbroe:

No. After my second year, I think it was, one of the other graduate students got a fellowship to Princeton or one of the Ivy League schools, and he had a NASA fellowship. So they had to give it to somebody, and I got it. So my last years there at graduate school, I was on the NASA fellowship.

Neal:

What did that involve?

Withbroe:

Oh, I mean basically NASA is just providing the money.

Neal:

Okay, and you did your graduate work.

Withbroe:

Yes.

Neal:

So let’s talk about your graduate work. How did you… I know it was in astronomy. What were the specific problems that you were interested in?

Withbroe:

Okay. Let’s see if I can remember. Oh! One of the professors was an expert at figuring out what the abundance of the elements were in stars, so I got interested in that. Well, my thesis advisor said, “Well, we’d really like to see how the molecule CH behaves in the solar atmosphere. If you study the radiation you get from CH molecules, what can you learn about the sun?” So he was… There’s a certain breed of astronomers who make models of the atmosphere, of the photosphere of stars, and so he was a modeler, so I got into modeling then.

Neal:

And this was Lawrence Aller or Porter?

Withbroe:

No, my thesis advisor was Günther Elste, who was an interesting guy because he grew up in East Germany. He was in the German navy in World War II, a member of the Nazi party, and I always wondered how… I just wondered a little bit, until when the Goldwater election came along, he put his arms around my shoulder and says, “George, don't vote for this guy. He reminds me of my old leader.” [Laughter] Which is an insult to Goldwater because Goldwater is not that kind of guy!

Neal:

Sure, sure! Do you know? Did he come over to America right after World War II? Is he…?

Withbroe:

He came over fairly soon after the war because we were getting a lot of German scientists at the time.

Neal:

Absolutely. Yeah.

Withbroe:

I don't know if he came over as part of the German scientist… Probably not, because who wants astronomers? They were looking for people who did other things, rockets and stuff, which I met some of those guys down at… because I used to go to Huntsville a lot, and that’s where the Peenemünde team went.

Neal:

Yep. When was that? When were you traveling to Huntsville?

Withbroe:

Oh, when we were on Skylab. Skylab was run out of Huntsville. The platform was run out of Huntsville and the experiments were run out Huntsville, so I spent more time in Huntsville, Alabama than I care to remember!

Neal:

Okay. All right. Well, we’ll get to that, but I want to stay on Michigan. I wondered if there were any other classes or people that you remember from your time at the PhD that had an influence.

Withbroe:

Okay. My thesis advisor. The chairman of the department was a solar physicist.

Neal:

And who was he?

Withbroe:

Oh, Mohler I think was his name.

Neal:

Mohler, you said?

Withbroe:

[Orren] Mohler. What the hell was his name now? But anyway, the chair of the department was a solar physicist. Leo Goldberg had been chair of the department and had left to go to Harvard, which is important—

Neal:

Yep.

Withbroe:

—for the effect it had on my career. Then there were a couple of—Oh, Don Wentzel was there, and he’s an interesting guy. He was one of my thesis advisors. He’s interesting because his wife’s mother was a Nobel Prize winner, Mayer.

Neal:

Mayer, yeah.

Withbroe:

She won the Nobel Prize while we were at Michigan because I remember the day he came to school and said, “My mother-in-law just won the Nobel Prize!” He was a fascinating instructor. I mean he was just eager-beaver type scientist.

Neal:

Do you remember in particular any lessons or—

Withbroe:

I just took courses from him, and I just… I mean his enthusiasm was… And Lawrence Aller was sort of the… because he was a big name. Wentzel, who I took… I liked his intellectual side of science. He was just… Plus the fact he was a very nice guy, as it was his way.

Neal:

That always helps, yeah.

Withbroe:

And he was the kind of guy you could go to and get advice from, which are always good to have.

Neal:

Do you remember any advice that he gave you?

Withbroe:

Oh, when I was applying for my post-doc, I applied to Aerospace Engineering. I was offered a job at Aerospace and offered a job at Harvard. I’ll put this in the file. He said, “I wrote you a bad review to Aerospace because I didn't think you should go there. I thought you should go to Harvard.” [Laughter] “It would have been bad for your career.” That was his edit.

Neal:

Very interesting.

Withbroe:

He told me that, you know.

Neal:

Yeah, and clearly he expected you to make your own decision, but then… So was there anything else that you remember from your graduate work at Michigan?

Withbroe:

The thing I remember is the camaraderie between the students. We’d all go up. We’d just gotten a new building. The physics and astronomy building was just built while we were there. It was a brand new building, and I think we were on the tenth floor. At night, that was our floor. We’d play soccer in the hallway, and one day the janitor comes in and says, “There are all these dents in the ceiling. Where are they coming from?” Mmm… But I mean we just had a ball as students. One of the students I remember—I can't remember her name—she was building organs. That was her side line is building organs. I mean it was just… It was an interesting collection of people, and then you realize… which if I hadn't… It was the first time I really realized there’s a whole bunch of different personalities in science. There’s not just one kind of thing, and they all add something because of their individual quirks.

Neal:

Excellent. So we talked a little bit about how you were recommended to go to Harvard. Were there any other places? Harvard and Aerospace. Were there any other…?

Withbroe:

Those were the only two. I think those were the only two places I applied for a job. I don't recall any other.

Neal:

Okay. So we talked a little bit about why you chose Harvard, but do you remember what attracted you to that and what you did when you first got there?

Withbroe:

Oh. The thing that attracted me is they had a satellite program. They were building experiments for the first Orbiting Solar Observatories, and that fascinated me. Well, I was interested in the space game and they were doing the space game, and you're at the cutting edge in the beginning. Then I got hired because Goldberg called up Mohler and said, “Do you have any solar guys coming along, because we need somebody to analyze the data from our first experiment.” That satellite failed. That was OSO-2. Then we had an experiment on OSO-4, and that satellite worked beautifully.

Neal:

Mm-hmm. Yeah, and OSO is the Orbiting Solar Observatory.

Withbroe:

The Orbiting Solar Observatories.

Neal:

Okay. So you're hired on to analyze the data. Who were the people that you were working with?

Withbroe:

They didn't have an analyzer. They had two guys, Ed Reeves and Bill Parkinson, who Goldberg, from one of his buddies in England, said, “I want two crackerjack physicists to design and get my instruments built.” So he got Reeves and Parkinson, who were laboratory physicists, did atomic physics in the laboratory, but they were very good physicists and they took over making these experiments.

Neal:

What were the experiments designed to measure?

Withbroe:

They were designed to measure the extreme ultraviolet radiation from the sun. It’s invisible. You can only see it in the photosphere. The corona, you can only see it, the limb, if you blank out the photosphere because it’s so damn…

Neal:

So bright.

Withbroe:

…million times brighter than the corona. And you see it during eclipse or with the coronagraph which artificially blocks off the… And so where in the XUV the corona is as bright in the disk and the limb… well, unless you go far out. So you can study the corona very easily with an XUV experiment, or extreme ultraviolet experiment.

Neal:

Yep. Okay.

Withbroe:

So you see part of the sun on the disk that you can't see from the ground.

Neal:

Yes, and this needed to be done in space because the atmosphere interferes with the ultraviolet spectrum.

Withbroe:

Yeah.

Neal:

Do you know, was this the first satellite to measure this, or were there other competing satellites?

Withbroe:

There were two groups that studied this part of the spectrum. There was a group at Goddard and a group at Harvard, and Goddard’s group… Early on I think they were studying the total radiation. Didn't actually study the surface. They didn’t map on the sun. The Harvard group was the first group really to map it. They may have done it at Goddard, but anyway, the Harvard ones were the first one who really did it successfully.

Neal:

Yeah, and then let’s talk about what you remember from that time, what the new information and new physics that you discovered with this instrument.

Withbroe:

Well, it was fun. I was one of the first people to really model, based on data, the solar transition region between the corona… basically low corona and the transition between the chromosphere, where it goes from 10,000 degrees up to 1 million degrees, the transition region. That became my sort of expertise, was studying that transition layer.

Neal:

Do you remember any particular thoughts or experiences of when you found something new or thought you understood something that people hadn't understood before?

Withbroe:

Well, the beauty of studying that thin layer between the chromosphere and the corona is that’s the primary way the corona is cooled, is by radiation going out by the transition region into the upper chromosphere. So if you want to study the energetics of, say, an active region, which is a photosphere-chromosphere-corona, their transition region is the main way the chromosphere and the corona talk to each other. So that’s why I wanted to study the transition. I wanted to study that place where the transfer is going on, energy transfer.

Neal:

Yeah, absolutely. I know that several of your papers are also dealing with the abundances of elements in this region, right?

Withbroe:

Yeah, when I was doing my thesis I got interested because of Lawrence Aller. I got interested in the chemical abundances, chemical composition of the photosphere and did a couple papers on that. Then I got—Well, let’s get the chemical composition of the transition region and the lower corona, which you can do if you’ve got the XUV observations.

Neal:

Yeah. So this in a way was a natural outgrowth of your thesis.

Withbroe:

Yes. Yeah, in some sense it was… yeah.

Neal:

So I believe that was your… How long did the post-doc last, if you don't mind?

Withbroe:

I didn't become a full-time employee until ’73. I started in ’65 and I was working for Harvard, and the other guy I was working with was Bob Noyes. He was a full professor at Harvard. I was just a post-doc, and I was married and I started having kids and I said, “Okay. I’ve got to get a permanent job. I can't be a post-doc forever.” So Bob pinch hit for me and I ended up with a job with Smithsonian. So I started out in a small, small part-time and eventually became full-time.

Neal:

Okay. Well, since you brought it up, that’s one of the questions I was going to ask later. But how did you and your wife meet? And if you wouldn't mind talking a little bit about how the growth of your family affected your career.

Withbroe:

Okay. My wife and I… She grew up in Milwaukee, or a suburb of Milwaukee, Waukesha. If you’re from Oshkosh, you know where Waukesha is.

Neal:

Yep, yep.

Withbroe:

My folks had a fishing cabin out in Door County on the lakeside, and on the bayside was a resort called Little Sister where my sister worked as a waitress in the summer times. She’s two years younger than me. Every year, she would decide which waitress I got to date. I could only date one. I couldn't go through the… So one year she said, “The one to date is Linda,” and Linda was there because her family is from Baileys Harbor. Some of her family members, part of her family comes from there, and so they got her a job over at Little Sister Resort. So the summer after I graduated MIT, I failed to get my job in Antarctica, which I wanted to do. I had no graduate schools yet because Wisconsin had turned me down. So I didn't know what the hell I was going to do with the rest of my life. So I went up to my folks’ cabin a lot and started dating this young lady.

Neal:

Well, very interesting. I did want to follow up. You said the job in Antarctica, if you could describe that.

Withbroe:

Oh. My senior year at MIT, you could get one-year appointments to serve at the South Pole. I think it was the South Pole, South Pole Station. I applied, and I was so convinced being at MIT I was going to get the job, and I didn't get it. I suspect I didn't pass the psychological test because the guy was really interested to have me go down, the guy who was interviewing me, but you have to have a… because that’s tough conditions down there.

Neal:

Yeah, absolutely.

Withbroe:

At the time I didn't have a good self-image because MIT had really done a job on me, and so I strongly suspect that I didn't pass the psychological test.

Neal:

What was this position offered by?

Withbroe:

Oh, it was… I don't remember who gave it, if it was the NSF… Might have been the NSF. It was basically looking at studying the aurora from Antarctica.

Neal:

Well yeah, that is interesting. So you—

Withbroe:

So when that failed, right, in that summer I didn't know what the hell I could do with the rest of my life.

Neal:

So yeah, if you wouldn't mind saying how this relationship developed during that summer before—

Withbroe:

Well, we just fell in love, basically. She had just graduated from high school. I just graduated from college, so there was a several year gap in our ages, and we just clicked. We both come from blue-collar families, so there was no social status kind of thing. She went off to La Crosse College for her first year. She was going to become a nurse. She went to a school that no longer exists in Madison for nursing school. The first year they had to go to college, which she did and went to La Crosse. So we had this long-distance relationship for three years while I was at Michigan and she was at La Crosse and then down in Madison. So we did a lot of commuting back and forth to Wisconsin.

Neal:

Yeah. Very interesting. So I imagine…

Withbroe:

So we’re pretty sure we were meant for each other to jump all those hurdles.

Neal:

Absolutely, that it survived that. So then did she join you your last year in…

Withbroe:

Yeah, she joined me my last year. Once she graduated, then she joined me at Michigan for my last year. And we had a nice apartment a block from the football field.

Neal:

Did you go to all the games?

Withbroe:

Oh, of course! Well, because a lot of them were my either students or former students.

Neal:

And I know that your interest in athletics, it continued all through that, so that’s great to hear. Then did she become a nurse or did she…?

Withbroe:

She worked at the University of Michigan hospital as a nurse. That was tough duty. She worked in the cancer ward.

Neal:

Oh, wow.

Withbroe:

That was not easy duty.

Neal:

No. So skipping back ahead a little bit, so you're at Harvard and as you said, you have a growing family. You needed a position, so how did you then… Do you remember how you actually got the position at the Smithsonian?

Withbroe:

Yeah. As I say, Bob Noyes… Oh, because we were on Skylab and I was the go-to guy on Skylab for the observations, not only for our experiment. I was sort of one of the main planners for how we used Skylab to study the sun. In some sense, I was almost the de facto chair of the committee that did that—not really, but in some sense I was. Because I paid a lot of attention and other people didn't pay as much attention. So that led to us being… Skylab became a consuming thing for the next several years. A lot of trips to Huntsville and to, as we called it—maybe I shouldn't put this down—Yucksville (Houston). [Chuckles]

Neal:

No, I think that’s great. So do you remember, if you wouldn't mind talking about the transition from OSO to Skylab and what was involved with that? Or your transition?

Withbroe:

We were in Skylab very early on while we were still in OSO, and Skylab was going to be the next big solar observatory. It kept getting delayed, and so they needed somebody to honcho, to go to all the meetings for how we’re going to use this thing with the astronauts to study the sun. Nobody had really used astronauts at that point to do expensive observations, you know, probably until the moon guys who did geology on the moon. But they actually had to make decisions in Skylab, what to observe and how to observe it and stuff.

Neal:

So if you wouldn’t mind, that sounds very fascinating. If you were at these meetings, how was it decided how astronauts would be used…?

Withbroe:

Oh. The thing we worked out together with a couple of the astronauts—Ed Gibson and Owen Garriott. They were both scientist astronauts, really smart guys, and so we worked with them to work out procedures so we could communicate with the astronauts what we wanted done from the ground, and then they could execute it. We invented some ways of doing things in very short form communication. Well, we called them building blocks because they had seven telescopes they had to operate, which the—I think it was seven all total. One of them—I think Owen said, “It’s like playing three keyboards, three pianos at the same time to run that,” because it was all done… See, you didn't have computer control then. They had to push buttons and sort of switches to make the telescopes do what they were supposed to do. So we had to educate them on what they were supposed to observe, why they were observing it so they understood what we were trying to do, what our goals were. So there was a lot of interplay between us and the astronauts.

Neal:

And yeah, if you wouldn't mind saying, what were those goals? Because I know many solar physicists talk about Skylab as a really innovative and important—

Withbroe:

Yeah. Well, because never up till that point had that power been put in the sun, having two x-ray telescopes, three XUV telescopes. I mean it just had phenomenal capability compared to anything that had been flown before. It was complicated because all the experiments except ours used film, and so they had to be very careful about the film supplies. We could just keep taking data because our data was telemetered down. So between us and the astronauts, particularly Gibson and Garriott, how do we communicate what we want to do, what modes to get the experiments, and how do we just run this whole thing? It was quite a complicated operation to run it remotely. Basically we were using the astronauts as our computers… sensate computers. Well, better than computers because they think!

Neal:

Yes. Exactly.

Withbroe:

He could say, “Oh, this is what I think he meant to say, or she meant to say.”

Neal:

So you said that your experiment at the Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory did not use film.

Withbroe:

No.

Neal:

So what was the… if you wouldn't mind describing that experiment.

Withbroe:

The experiment was an XUV experiment. Went down to 304 He II line. The spectrum in that part is basically spectral lines. From 304 helium in the chromosphere to things like Fe16 (iron with 15 electrons removed), and they’re hot in the corona—there are lines covering that whole spectrum, and so you could study the whole atmosphere from the chromosphere up to the corona on the disk with that experiment.

Neal:

And you did that by scanning through each wavelength individually or…?

Withbroe:

What we had on that particular experiment… This is before we had big 2D detectors. So we had a photomultiplier basically on seven different wavelengths, or you could scan the grating and get a spectrum. So you could either get a spectrum of a point or you’d get a picture in seven different wavelengths with our experiment. So we did both. We’d take pictures to get the scene, and then you’d take a spectrum of the things you really wanted to study in detail.

Neal:

But to decide on those, it was actually the astronauts that would—

Withbroe:

We decided what we were going to observe. Sometimes Owen and… Owen Garriott at the end, we said, “Just go do whatever you want today,” because we felt he earned it.

Neal:

Sure, sure.

Withbroe:

But most of the time we’d say, “Look at activation number X and run these,” what we called building blocks, which are a set of instrument modes.

Neal:

Sure. If you remember from that time, what were some of the new things that were discovered or exciting developments during that time period?

Withbroe:

Oh, the most exciting development was actually not from our experiment—coronal mass ejections. That was the first really good—I mean there was an unmanned experiment from Goddard that did some of that, but Skylab really was the first comprehensive study of coronal mass ejections. So that was primarily the coronagraph was the key thing there.

Neal:

Yeah, and they’re obviously still one of the most important things that it—

Withbroe:

A lot of the early pictures, when you see things, were from Skylab.

Neal:

Okay. It’s a little bit earlier, but I wanted to also talk about when you sort of started on this path, how the Apollo program affected your outlook and what you remember about that, because I imagine that was the most visible thing that NASA was doing at the time.

Withbroe:

Well, in some sense Skylab is an outgrowth of the Apollo program.

Neal:

Yeah, exactly.

Withbroe:

Because they had this Saturn V—two Saturn V’s, I think, left at the end of Apollo, and they decided that never could do beyond, what was it, Apollo 17, the last one? Decided it was too expensive because they’re like half a billion dollars to shoot those things. So they had some left over and they decided, “What are we going to do with these?” and so they decided to take one of them and convert it into Skylab—pick the third stage, convert it into a space station. It sort of was, in some sense, an el cheapo way to get a space station rather than starting from scratch.

Neal:

Sure.

Withbroe:

And they needed something to follow… As I still remember when the last astronaut crew came in to Mission Control because we ran Skylab from Mission Control in Houston—came in to thank Mission Control for their help, what they did during the last Apollo mission. I still remember that day when the three astronauts were up there thanking them. I was sitting in the back of the room, you know?

Neal:

And this was at NASA headquarters or was this in Huntsville?

Withbroe:

This was in Houston, yeah.

Neal:

So many of your papers during this time were obviously about different measurements and things that were happening with Skylab. You know, I have listed research on solar flares, active regions, brightness and extreme ultraviolet measurements. Were there any particular aspects of that research that stood out to you, looking back on it?

Withbroe:

I don't think it was really… In 20/20 hindsight, the groundbreaking stuff on Skylab was the coronagraph, the coronal mass ejections. We incrementally advanced knowledge. Those OSOs had done a lot of the basic stuff. We just refined it, basically, I think.

Neal:

Sure.

Withbroe:

Oh, and also I think a key was that the scientists and astronauts worked together. That worked very well, which says a lot for the astronauts we had at the time.

Neal:

Were there any aspects of that that you think could have been followed through better on in later programs of scientists and astronauts working together?

Withbroe:

Well, once computers came in, you can do everything—You know, like solar maximum mission and so on. It’s the missions it came on later. You don't need a man in the… Well, in those days it was a man. There wasn’t the diversity that there is now.

Neal:

Sure. Sure, yeah.

Withbroe:

You want to control your instrument directly. You don't want to have to tell somebody what to do to it.

Neal:

Okay.

Withbroe:

No matter how smart they are, and they’re smart!

Neal:

Sure. Absolutely. Do you remember what the first mission that really used that new capability was? Either that you worked on or that you—

Withbroe:

Well, I didn't work on it, but SMM was one of the first ones that really did it very well.

Neal:

Okay. So you're at the Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory. How long… I know you were analyzing this data from Skylab for several years, I believe.

Withbroe:

Yeah. Oh, basically till the day I left I was—

Neal:

Sure, and then after… When was that, I guess?

Withbroe:

Let’s see. I left… When did I leave there? I was there…When did I go to NASA? ’91.

Neal:

Yeah, that’s what I was going to say.

Withbroe:

’91.

Neal:

Okay. So then let’s talk about that. How did that transition come about?

Withbroe:

That came about… Let’s see. I was recruited. Oh, the reason it came up. If you look at my resume, I’ve served on a lot of advisory committees, a whole ton of them.

Neal:

Yes.

Withbroe:

And one of the guys that I served with on one of the important ones was Len Fisk, who became the head of space science at NASA. My predecessor at NASA, who ran basically the heliospheric program, Stan Shawhan, died of a heart attack. Stan was absolutely brilliant. I mean he got heliophysics… He’s the guy that made it go at NASA. Plus the fact that he was an absolutely super guy, so it was a great loss. So Len knew me, and he had his assistant call me up and say, “Hey, do you want to come to NASA?” I think the first call came the night we bombed Baghdad.

Neal:

Oh, wow.

Withbroe:

It was right in that period, right when the Gulf War started.

Neal:

Wow.

Withbroe:

What was it, February of ’91?

Neal:

Yeah, I think that’s right.

Withbroe:

But at any rate, the two events, being asked to go to NASA and the Gulf War, were close together.

Neal:

Linked in your mind.

Withbroe:

So Len—obviously I must have impressed him, and he said, “Okay, I want you to fill Stan’s job.” Oh, and he didn't tell me that directly. I got that from… It’s interesting how it happened. They floated this. We were at a meeting in the Canary Islands together and Len said, “Let’s go for a walk.” So we went for a walk and he was exploring why I would want to come working for NASA. Then he asked me a question which I know really is one of the standard things. “What are your weaknesses?” You know, here I am ready to say, “Here’s why I’m the guy you want,” and he says, “What are your weaknesses?” So okay. I wasn’t sure I wanted to go to NASA, so I just laid them all out. Len says, “You got the job. If you know what your weaknesses are, that’s a very important…” And now that I became a manager, yep, you’ve got to know the things you're not good at so you can get other people to do those things.

Neal:

Sure. I’m curious, because I believe Len Fisk worked at University of Michigan.

Withbroe:

Yes.

Neal:

Was that that connection? Were you connected in that way or was that later?

Withbroe:

No. No, I didn't know him when he was at Michigan. He left before I got there.

Neal:

I see. Okay.

Withbroe:

Now wait a minute. Is that…? I’m just trying to think. When I went to NASA, did Len… No, I’m getting these things confused, whether he was… I can't remember now. No, I went to Harvard before I went to NASA. That’s right. No, that’s right. Okay, no. Okay.

Neal:

But yeah, that’s what I was going to talk about. So at Harvard, you were the director of the Solar and Stellar Physics Division?

Withbroe:

Yeah. Yeah, toward the end.

Neal:

Towards the end. Okay.

Withbroe:

Toward the end.

Neal:

Was that also an outgrowth of the Skylab work or was there other…?

Withbroe:

Well… What happened to the former director? Surely I can't remember now. Anyway, they needed a director, and they had a couple choices and I got it.

Neal:

All right. So then from Harvard to NASA, and if you don't mind, what was that transition like? What was the culture of NASA during that time? What was your position like during that time?

Withbroe:

It was an interesting thing for, as I say, this blue-collar kid who is now running a… When I first came into the program, it was a $300 million program, and I remember going to one of my church friends. He was a pastor of a church. I said, “They just hired me to run a $300 million program,” and of course that minister saying, “How can you spend $300 million doing any good? Don't you feel guilty as a church member spending that kind of money, controlling that kind of money?” Better me than somebody else.

Neal:

Sure.

Withbroe:

It was a challenge.

Neal:

Well, I think that would have also been right at the end of the Cold War, sort of the end…

Withbroe:

Yeah.

Neal:

And I wonder if there were any big changes going on at NASA because of that.

Withbroe:

I can't remember any big changes. Space science became important because the manned program was starting to lose some… and so NASA needed a new gem, and I think space science filled that gem, which it has since then. In fact, it even helped support the astronaut program through the Hubble Space Telescope. So space science became a real drive. That’s about the time space science became a real driver at NASA as opposed to the Human Spaceflight Program because what do you do for an encore after you’ve landed on the moon? I mean that was sort of one of the things running around headquarters. I mean, how do you top that?

Neal:

Yeah. And it clearly took a long time for that culture to shift, I would say.

Withbroe:

Yeah. And so in my mind, space science and Earth science—because when I went to NASA, Gore was vice president, and so that made Earth science very important. They studied the planet because that was when we were really starting to worry about what was happening to the planet.

Neal:

So what were some of the first programs or initiatives that you remember working on?

Withbroe:

Well, the first one, Stan, as I say, died of a heart attack, and he started this program called International Solar-Terrestrial Physics Program, which is a joint program with Europe and Japan. It was just getting off the ground. We were just developing the satellites and the experiments and stuff like that, so they needed somebody who was going to, in effect, be the boss of that for the experiment side. I mean they had to provide the headquarters. That’s where the money comes from. You want to make sure the money goes the right places, which is why you have scientists in that role, not just bureaucrats.

Neal:

Sure. You said for the experiment side. Was the other side the instruments or the spacecraft? How did that…?

Withbroe:

Well, we had to worry about satellites, too, because satellites are developed… Let’s see. Goddard ran satellite development, and we paid for it. Did we pay for them? I don't know if we paid for them. No, we didn't pay for them directly. We paid for the experiments and somebody else paid for the satellites. But in effect, they were just paying for us. So we had to make sure they were being done right. Stan had been actually—I mean that was a real loss, losing him, so stepping into his shoes was sort of daunting because I knew Stan because I’d been on certain committees with him and stuff.

Neal:

So when you started in this position after following in a very influential and important person’s footsteps, do you remember the reactions or how you handled this new administrative task?

Withbroe:

Well, it was a challenge for me. The solar community knew who I was because I had been a leader in the solar community. In fact, I’d just been like the chair of the Solar Physics Division in AAS just before this came, and I actually had to give that up. But the space science community didn't know who the hell I was, and so developing creds with them was somewhat of a challenge. Who’s this solar guy?

Neal:

Sure. Do you have any specific examples of that tension?

Withbroe:

I basically had to prove myself, and ultimately I think I did.

Neal:

Do you remember how or any…?

Withbroe:

Just through the job.

Neal:

What was—

Withbroe:

In some sense, what strikes me is when the coach of an athletic team dies—you know, it was a star coach and then you bring in another coach, how does that guy, or gal if it’s a… establish… You know, it’s tricky.

Neal:

Yeah, absolutely.

Withbroe:

Because you’ve got deference to the one you’ve replaced, and yet you're going to go moving things in a different direction eventually. So how do you do that right?

Neal:

So what did that job actually entail? Like what were the decisions that you had to make?

Withbroe:

Most of it was to make sure we kept getting the funding to do the ISTP program properly, and then develop ideas for new programs, a follow-on program. That was a challenge, how to come up with a program that would be a good follow-on program to ISTP.

Neal:

So when you were first there—this was as the director of the Space Physics Division.

Withbroe:

Yeah. The name kept changing.

Neal:

Yeah. So the next one I have is the science program director for the Sun-Earth Connection.

Withbroe:

That was my decision because you’d say, “Space physics. What the hell is space physics?” People had no idea what it was, except the space physics community knew what it was. But nobody else knew what it was. Well, all we’re really studying is the sun and how it connects with the Earth, so we changed the name. We had a committee. One of the committees, you start using that name, and I said, “That’s… We’ll call it that,” because that tells the non-believers what the hell we do. That’s one thing I learned at NASA. The public is putting a lot of money in your hands, so a crucial thing is telling the people who are providing the money what the hell you're doing and why, why it’s worthwhile, why they should make that investment. I figured that was my main objective, the ten years at NASA headquarters, was to get that message across.

Neal:

Excellent. Who were those detractors, if you remember any of them?

Withbroe:

Well, there weren't that many detractors. Well, some people wondered about having a solar guy, but… I guess my goal was to make space physics respectable at NASA, I mean, because there’s excellent science being done out in the community. But you get a program where the human space science is the… human space is the… Earth science has obviously got the thing that’s got practical uses, utility, so what does space science do? How much are we going to spend on just doing… Astronomy has the pizzazz of exploring the universe, and what was our pizzazz? That was what I felt was… We had to come up with why we were doing what we want and why you should spend money, resources on it, why it’s worthwhile to the taxpayer to spend money on this. To me, that’s a fundamental job when you're in the government, is you have to explain to the public why you want the resources you’ve got to do what you're doing. Or if you're going to fight a war, why the hell you're fighting the war, you know? Whatever it is, you’ve got to tell the taxpayer why you're doing it.

Neal:

Yeah. Can you give any examples of ways that you went about it or tried to…?

Withbroe:

Well, what we tried to do was two things: understanding and utility, the two uses of science we called Pasteur’s science. Pasteur studied germs and all that stuff just for the joy of understanding how germs work, but oh by the way, it cures disease. So we used the idea of doing Pasteur science. That’s what we’re doing. Our contribution is the space environment affects things like national defense, communication satellites, etc., etc., etc., and therefore, we have utility side… and just understanding how the space environment works is the science side.

Neal:

Yeah, so it’s both understanding and utility. That was the message.

Withbroe:

Yes.

Neal:

Did you find that it was… Did you find people very receptive? Was there some opposition? Was there… I guess I’m curious about what you as an administrator, the sort of two sides of the issue that people who thought you weren't going far enough or were going too far.

Withbroe:

I guess the thing that I remember the most vividly was—The first time I did a press conference was a reporter called me up, very well-known reporter at the time, John Holliman, who was one of the reporters involved… What the hell. One of the big issues. Shoot. I can't remember what he was involved in. I just draw a blank all of a sudden of what John Holliman was involved with, but he was a famous reporter. John Holliman called up NASA and said, “I heard three Air Force satellites got knocked out by a solar event. Could you tell me—” He called the Defense Department, and the Defense Department says, “We know nothing.” He called NASA, and since I was head of the… It was arranged for me to talk to John. I said, “John, I don't know if three Air Force satellites got knocked out by a solar event, but I can tell you if they did, how it was done, what would have happened.” I gave examples, and one of the examples I remember giving him is my daughter was in labor. She had to use her pager to call her nurse midwife to say, “I’m on the way to the hospital,” and her pager didn't work.

Neal:

Ah.

Withbroe:

The reason it didn't work is the communication satellite that circuit had been knocked out by a solar event that controlled the pager thing. So we got to the hospital okay and everything like that. So here I found out I had an effect of the sun affected my family. I told John Holliman that story and he just loved it.

Neal:

That is great.

Withbroe:

It’s not just theoretical for you; this is actually… So we decided to make that a… Well, I decided basically I was going to make the theme the utility and the applications. So I became very well versed in stuff I couldn't always talk about. I mean I had secret clearance so I could find out what’s going on in the military world. I went to… Well, I shouldn't say.

Neal:

That’s quite all right.

Withbroe:

I’d say I found out what was going on in the military world because I had appropriate security clearance. As I say, if you're high enough level in NASA because it’s high-tech, which has dual use, you have to have a security clearance.

Neal:

Sure. Makes sense.

Withbroe:

So I was quite familiar with military applications of what the sun can do, as well as the effect on civilian systems like happened to my daughter, and so I decided, “Let’s make a program that, among other things, takes it into account.”

Withbroe:

I should finish… Do you want me to finish the John Holliman story?

Neal:

Please. Yes.

Withbroe:

So we talked a while. He wanted to know how these satellites got killed and I told him, if they were killed, that here’s how it happened. He said, “That’s interesting. Let’s record it.” So he brought a cameraman in. So then we did one of these standard interviews where the cameraman focuses on each person, which made CNN the next day.

Neal:

Oh, wow.

Withbroe:

Which I never saw. As a sidebar, I asked John, “Could I get a copy of the interview?” It never came, and then I found out John Holliman died in an automobile accident a few weeks later.

Neal:

Oh.

Withbroe:

It was in the newspaper. This guy who had been in the bombing of Baghdad TV—that’s where he got his start, is the bombing of Baghdad—got killed in an automobile accident.

Neal:

Oh. That’s sad. So you're at NASA. You're trying to promote the utility and the understanding. What were some of the relations with the scientific community that you were involved with or challenges that you faced in that position?

Withbroe:

I don't recall really… I mean getting creds with the space environment side was… But when we started getting programs for that for everybody, that solved that problem.

Neal:

Mm-hmm. How did you decide which programs should get funded?

Withbroe:

Oh. Well, usually they came up through advisory committees and stuff like that, which programs were funded. Then toward the end I thought, “We really need…” Up until when I first got to NASA, you went mission by mission. There were only a couple programs like the Explorer program, which was a mission line where you develop a series of satellites, and the funding just keeps coming and you just keep… as you can afford to build new satellites. Most of the space physics other than the Explorer program were onesies like SMM. You go to the Congress to get the money for that one, go to the Congress to get the money for the next things. What we need is a line. That period, ultimately we needed two lines, one of which I call the solar terrestrial probes, which would be a series of things like SMM, but just a series of programs. So we get a line of money, and as one satellite peels off, you start building the next… figuring the next one using input from the scientific community.

Then toward the end, I said, “Wait a minute. This utility-understanding thing, let’s build a program designed around that,” which we decided to call “Living With a Star.” That to me, the solar terrestrial probes and the “Living With a Star”—particularly the “Living With a Star” program—I figure those were my contributions to the… “Living With a Star” some people didn't like. They didn't like pushing utility. “We’re scientists. We do only science,” and I said, “No, we’ll have this joint program that is utility and science, utility and understanding, merge the two, and we can sell the Congress. We can sell to the country because it says ‘useful science.’”

Neal:

Do you remember how you actually went about that, what the Congress was—

Withbroe:

The name came. I got my team at headquarters and said, “Okay, here’s what I’d like to do.” Bill Wagner said, “Let’s call it ‘Living With a Star’.” I think it was Bill Wagner. It was one of my solar scientists. I didn't invent the name. One of them (and I’m pretty sure it was Bill) invented it. So we discussed doing this, and then I talked to my boss. Oh, my boss actually was Ed Weiler at the time. Ed… because I’d been talking a lot about the utility-understanding, that whenever we do presentations, NASA needs this. “George, you ought to get a program doing that.” Oh, okay! The boss suggests you go get a program—go do it! So I designed… Our team came up with a program to do it. Then he said, “Okay, now what we need to do is get to the administrator,” who was Dan Goldin at the time, who didn't think much of space physics, as we were known. I said, “Planetary we understand. That’s exploration. Astronomy is excitement. Earth science is practical. What the hell is space physics?” He said at the time, when he first came in, “I don't really give a shit… care about that program. That is not one of my priorities.” So Ed said, “I’ve got to get the administrator on.”

Well, we had a chief scientist by the name of Kathie Olsen. “Go talk to Kathie first.” Well, first of all, Ed said, “I think you need a program like this. Design the program,” so we designed the program. Then he said, “Go talk to Kathie. Get her help,” because Goldin really liked Kathie because she worked directly for him. She’d been a staffer on the Hill. I mean she understood politics really well. Plus the fact she was a trained scientist, a biologist. So I went to Kathie and described what we wanted to do, and we hit it off because I’m a very strong supporter of women scientists and stuff. I mean she picked up on that, and diversity. So she helped us sell it, arranged for us to do a presentation for the administrator, and I pulled out all the guns. We got done making the presentation—First, it helped having Kathie there saying… dropping hints what to say, you know?

Neal:

Sure.

Withbroe:

And when I got all done with the presentation, Goldin says, “I used to think this program wasn’t worth… In effect, it’s not worth much. You’ve got me convinced. We’ll go get the money for it,” and so “Living With a Star” was born.

Neal:

Excellent.

Withbroe:

So I figured that my selling, via Kathie, Goldin on doing something in a field that he didn't like was one of my contributions.

Neal:

Mm-hmm. Were you involved with trying to get the money out of Congress at all or was that…?

Withbroe:

No. I mean I talked to a couple staffers about it, but no. Our system, NASA’s system, took care of that. My boss did have to testify. He said, “George, you're going to sit in the back of the room so if they give me anything I can't handle,” but Ed was really good. Ed had been the chief scientist on… or one of the key guys on Hubble Space Telescope. I think he was the Goddard scientist who was in charge of Hubble. Ed was a very talented guy.

Neal:

Yeah. But “Living With a Star” also involved other agencies.

Withbroe:

Oh. Then the other thing is I have given talks on our topic all over the world, so I know the international community. So I said, “Let’s make an international ‘Living With a Star’ program,” and so we called a meeting at NASA headquarters, brought in friends from a number of the other agencies, and they liked the idea and so the international Living With a Star program was born.

Neal:

How were those relationships involved? How did the national “Living With a Star” program interact with the international one?

Withbroe:

Well, in some sense it became all one program. I don't know how strong it is now, but everybody saw the attraction of doing utility and understanding together, and so everybody saw it as a win-win. You can't lose on it, basically. If people don't like utility, okay. Maybe they’ll like the science part, or vice versa. So it wasn’t actually hard to sell to them.

Neal:

Do you remember any particular countries or people that really picked up and ran with it?

Withbroe:

It was pretty much everybody… This is… Because when you're in the scientific community dealing with agencies, how do I get them to give me money to do what we want to do? So you have to convince them. It’s classic. You have to convince… I mean, if you're in the military, “Why do you want that tank?” you know? “Why do you want that airplane series?” Yeah. Because you have to convince your government that this is useful to your country.

Neal:

Were there any other examples like the pager example that you used to make that case?

Withbroe:

Well, everybody was aware that satellites can have problems from solar events. So you didn't really have to use… well, in the community. And it’s well known in our community that—it’s not important now, but it was back then—shortwave communications are highly dependent on what the sun is doing.

Neal:

Ah, yeah.

Withbroe:

So that is one of the factors. And one of the things you’ve got to worry about is we send a lot of airplanes across the poles, and so severe solar events can increase the radiation exposure in aircraft crews and passengers. So there’s a lot of practical applications that everybody said, “Yeah, we should understand this.”

Neal:

Also while you’re at NASA, you eventually became the director of the Sun-Earth Connection Division?

Withbroe:

Oh. When I first… I was director of the Space Physics Division. We just kept changing the name because I felt—Well, space physics—never knew what the hell that is. Everything we do in NASA is space physics, in some sense. Astronomy is space physics.

Neal:

Sure, sure.

Withbroe:

So we needed a different name, and that’s why we chose Sun-Earth Connection. Then after I left, they decided Heliosphere was a better way of… It’s a fancier way of saying the same thing.

Neal:

Sure. But you weren't involved with that name change or transition.

Withbroe:

No.

Neal:

Okay. I wanted to go back just a little bit. When you started, you were involved with, I’m sorry, the International…

Withbroe:

ISTP.

Neal:

ISTP, yeah.

Withbroe:

International Solar-Terrestrial Physics program.

Neal:

Exactly, yeah. I wondered if you could describe what you did with that, even though it wasn’t your program, how you…

Withbroe:

Well, it became my program when I got there.

Neal:

Yeah, when you got there.

Withbroe:

Stan and his friends, and I think it was largely Stan, conceived it… or he worked with the international community to create the program. But then we had to implement it, which means all the individual countries had to come up with their satellites and stuff. Then you’ve got experiments crossing. I mean like our satellites had European experiments on or Japanese experiments and vice versa. So there was a lot of coordination between—

Neal:

And so that was your job at the time, was doing that coordination.

Withbroe:

My job was, in effect, to make it… As much as you do, the real people that do it are the actual implementers, but you need to have supervision at the top.

Neal:

Sure. You talked a little bit about this in the “Living With a Star”, getting that started, but what was the… If you could talk a little bit more about the relationship of the Sun-Earth Connection Division to the NASA administrators and sort of the higher-ups and how that actually worked.

Withbroe:

We actually had a very nice team at headquarters doing the Earth sciences, which once Gore came in, they sort of went off and did their own thing. But the astrophysics, space physics, and the planetary program, we had a very nice… Wes Huntress was, I think, the first guy that was in charge, and he instituted a board of directors, basically. We worked really well together—how to keep all these programs running together smoothly and sort of running together as a team rather than competing with each other. Wes did a great job at it, and then keeping it team-oriented. And then Ed Weiler did it in spades. The two of them—Wes basically set it up, and then Weiler… Wes ended up having some… I think he had a conflict with Goldin.

Neal:

Yeah. I think I’ve heard that.

Withbroe:

I think basically he just said, “Screw this.” Then Weiler came over, and Weiler is basically a take-no-prisoners kind of… I mean he’s…

Neal:

Mm-hmm. So you did “Living With a Star”, and then I believe at about…Was it 2001 that you retired from NASA headquarters?

Withbroe:

Yeah, I retired at the end… Actually, December 31, 2001 is basically when I retired, or January 1st. I remember it was right at the end of the year.

Neal:

Was there any particular reason for that?

Withbroe:

In some sense, I felt I’d done everything I could do. There was nothing really new I could do, and I basically wanted to spend more time with my family.

Neal:

Sure. And then I know that after that you went to George Mason University.

Withbroe:

Yeah.

Neal:

If you wouldn't mind describing a little bit about that, like what you—

Withbroe:

Oh. George Mason, basically I needed a mechanism. I wanted to do research. I wanted to go back and do research. I need a home place to get—You can't get a grant to yourself, and George Mason was interested in building a department. Three of us—I can't remember who the third guy was—decided we would help them build a department in this area.

Neal:

Who was the second guy?

Withbroe:

The second guy was—oh, shoot. [Sighs] He’s a horseman. What the hell is his name now? Oh, I can't think.

Neal:

It’s quite all right. We can come back to it.

Withbroe:

I mean I can picture him, but I can't think of his name. I’m terrible at names anyway. So basically the two of us decided we were going to create a program at George Mason, and we went and talked to the dean and he said, “We can bring you some money. What do you want to do?” So we created a program there. For me, it was basically just get money so I could do research again.

Neal:

What was the research that you really wanted to do?

Withbroe:

Just work in solar-terrestrial physics. I can't even remember what I did. I can't even remember the papers I did at the time. I’d have to…

Neal:

Yeah. I do have them here. I can look them up.

Withbroe:

No.

Neal:

So were there any difficulties after leaving NASA—you know, conflicts of interest that you had to worry about with former colleagues?

Withbroe:

No, no. I made sure I talked to the lawyers at NASA, of course, that there was no conflict of interest.

Neal:

Sure.

Withbroe:

I mean I didn't send the grant and then go receive it.

Neal:

Yeah.

Withbroe:

I went to George Mason and submitted a proposal, and then it got approved. And given what I had done, he figured that was a reasonable, good investment of the money. I mean how many people had the experience I had? Like nobody who’s alive.

Neal:

Sure. Absolutely. Was there anything from that period that you remember especially fondly or experiments that you were really glad to have been able to do?

Withbroe:

Well, it was nice to write some ordinary scientific papers again, but that sort of got it out of my system.

Neal:

Okay. Well then, sort of taking the long view, one of the things I did want to talk about was all of these advisory committees because you said that was how you got into NASA initially. So I’m curious if you remember the first one that you did and how you got involved increasingly with that.

Withbroe:

When you're on advisory committees, you pretty soon figure out who can take the long view and do a thing. Pretty soon you develop… you know who the people are who are going to do that. I found it fascinating to take your experience and then, on the basis of that experience, in effect provide advice to the government; advisory committees, and to do that in a totally—not self-interested, but just because you want to help the community. It’s truly a community service thing, and I found it very enjoyable, giving advice… I mean one of the committees was picking a chief scientist for Naval Research Lab. I found that very useful to help them choose who their next chief scientist was going to be (or for our area in Naval Research Lab).

In some sense it’s payback. You’ve gotten all this support over the years to do science. You develop some perspectives about what’s important and what’s not important. You should pass that on to the next generation and to the agencies. As a lot of these were review committees, what is the program X doing for National Science Foundation? Is it doing what it’s supposed—You know, is it a useful program to have? You have an advisory committee that said, “Yes,” or “Here’s a way you can make it better.”

Neal:

Did that ever cause any conflicts between you and individual scientists, if you—?

Withbroe:

No, because the advisory committees, they’re very… I mean the camaraderie within the advisory committees is really good. I mean you may disagree on things, but you have a common objective. You're trying to get the best science for the government’s money you can get, so it’s a service that people do willingly.

Neal:

Were there any particular things that made you feel especially suited for taking over the administrative roles in those kinds of committees as you progressed later in your career?

Withbroe:

You mean what kind of administrative?

Neal:

Because my understanding is that you were first just a member of a committee and then…

Withbroe:

Oh, I chaired a lot of them.

Neal:

Exactly.

Withbroe:

And chairing is a lot of fun. It’s like being a coach of an athletic team. It’s how do you get everybody going in the same direction? Or how do you develop a consensus what the direction is to go? It’s just fun watching that process go, and sometimes you just sit there and watch it happen, which is fun, and sometimes you’ve got to nudge a little bit. But it’s… In some sense it’s payback. If you’ve gotten all this support over the years because of what other committees have done, these resources exist because people sold programs in the past, so now it’s your job to get out there and help sell the programs and make sure they’re doing what they’re supposed to be doing, or helping them, providing advice on how they should do it.

Neal:

Were there other aspects of those committees or that role that were especially important to you or memorable stories about—?

Withbroe:

Well, I got to meet a lot of international people that way, which was… One of the joys of the job is meeting diverse people from… I mean I still remember one of the committees I served on. I was the US representative on the committee for… I don't know if it was a French group or an ESA group, but it was fun being a fly on the wall for… So I got to know a lot of international scientists. And going to Japan and talking science there was just great fun. The Japanese restaurants are great fun!

Neal:

I just came back from Japan, so I know what you’re talking about. You mention that one of the things that’s been important to you is diversity and getting diverse viewpoints in science. Were there any particular examples where you felt you were able to do that well or to foster some of those connections?

Withbroe:

Well, I think my very first post-doc was a Syrian Sunni Moslem woman.

Neal:

Okay. This was at Harvard?

Withbroe:

This was at Harvard. Shadi Haval. We clicked, and the diversity was nice. Totally off the subject is one day I said—Because she was Sunni Moslem, I had a question. I said, “One thing I’ve never understood was…” Oh, shoot. It’s a parable. Oh, the camel going through the eye of a needle. I said, “I heard somewhere that’s a mistranslation.” Shadi said, “Of course it’s a mistranslation!” Shadi speaks fluent French, Arabic, and English. “It’s a mistranslation. Your big word for camel…” She wrote it down, and she wrote down the Arabic word for rope, wrote that down. They’re identical except for the equivalent of an umlaut. “Obviously it was supposed to be a rope going through the eye of a needle, and some idiot mistranslated it!” I told that to a biblical scholar and he said, “No, no. That can't be true.” I mentioned the story to some others. “Oh, yeah. That is probably true.” I said, “Hello! All these times the Christian Bibles had the wrong translation.”

Neal:

Well, actually that’s an excellent segue because that’s something I wanted to ask about. You said you're a Christian, and I wondered if you could talk about the relationship of your religion to your scientific work.

Withbroe:

Oh.

Neal:

And not even just work, but view of science.

Withbroe:

To me, there’s a strong—Oh, I’ve written two books—

Neal:

Yeah.

Withbroe:

—on science and theology that to understand theology properly, you have to understand science. In fact, there’s some… Francis Bacon said that if you really want to understand God, you have to read two books—the book of God’s Word and the book of God’s actions. I took—“Oh!” I got that from, what’s her name? The woman who does the radio show on PBS. I heard that story. Shoot. I can't think of her name. She’s from here.

Neal:

Yeah. Is it Emily something?

Withbroe:

No. Krista Tippett.

Neal:

Okay. Yeah.

Withbroe:

Who I have since met. I’ve got one of her books. That really struck me, and so I had no problem with religion and science. In fact, for me they reinforce each other because I think you're right. I mean I think Francis Bacon was absolutely correct. To get a real view of the world, if you believe that there’s a creator—Now if you're an atheist, of course, yeah. But if you believe that there is a God, then you’ve got to combine the two.

Neal:

Mm-hmm. I’m curious how this worked when you were… your religion when you were younger because I believe you said your father was not very religious.

Withbroe:

No. He read the Bible from cover to cover and read the Koran from cover to cover, but never went to church. As far as he’s concerned, he observed the behavior of a lot of his friends who were screwing around literally—pardon my French—but were good church members. He didn't go to church, but he believed in the sanctity of marriage. He said, “What’s wrong with this picture?” So he didn't have too much use for religion—I mean, even though he knew a lot about it because he read, but for organized religion he didn't have much use.

Neal:

What about your mother? Was she similar?

Withbroe:

My mother—she didn't really care, I don't think.

Neal:

So were you always spiritually inclined or did it… Or how did it…

Withbroe:

Well, my wife was an avid churchgoer, so therefore I became an avid churchgoer. It was a necessity of the marriage. And then I got hooked. I became a church leader. But anyway, I saw the connection between theology and science, between science and religion—or science and theology. Fascinating.

Neal:

Mm-hmm, and so that’s been part of your life all throughout this period. Do you remember… I’m curious. Did you share this with your colleagues or how…?

Withbroe:

No, because most scientists don’t… aren’t… Other than Shadi. I talked to her about it. But we’ve been churchgoers since… and I’ve been a church leader most of my life. In some sense, that’s another form of service which… And I’ve given some talks on topic.

Neal:

I’m curious. From the other perspective, how do you think the church, I guess, laity or even other church leaders look on and think of you as a scientist?

Withbroe:

Well, I think people are happy that I’m a scientist who has a religious connection on the religious side. I don't talk about it in the scientific community, as I say, because religion is sort of not something you talk about.

Neal:

Sure.

Withbroe:

Or at least my circles, the circles I’m in.

Neal:

Okay. I’m trying to think. So…

Withbroe:

In some sense, I should just distinguish between religion and theology. Theology, to me those are both intellectual subjects, not religious practices, which is totally different.

Neal:

Oh, okay. So is there… I guess I’m curious. Do you think that distinction holds among either the churchgoing public or other…

Withbroe:

I basically don't talk about it with… I mean there are some religious beliefs I think, you know, “Okay. If you want to believe that, fine. I’m not going to argue with you, but the Creator I am interested in wouldn't have bought that kind of stuff!”

Neal:

Well, fair enough. I’m curious if you think there are aspects of your life or work that we really haven't covered yet.

Withbroe:

I think I mentioned athletics have always been very important.

Neal:

Yeah.

Withbroe:

Running has been very important. In fact, I… Oh, I brought along a couple of pictures. This is my first trip to Moscow, and that’s the head of the… Albert Galeev, who was head of the Russian space science program at the time.

Neal:

Oh, wow.

Withbroe:

There I am and there’s one of my scientists and that’s another one of the scientists. That’s a Russian scientist, and that’s Alex’s wife. There we are at the formal dinner, and everybody in that picture is Russian, I think, except me. Yeah. And then that’s…

Neal:

Oh, wow.

Withbroe:

When I was 40, I ran the Boston Marathon as a bandit. This goes back, a newspaper article from… That’s me running the quarter-mile. As you can see, I was pretty good at it.

Neal:

Yeah. So all through your four years at MIT you were on—

Withbroe:

I was a runner, a runner on both teams, and as I say, that was relaxing. Then I ran 10K’s. Then when I turned 40, I ran a marathon just for the joy of doing it. The thing I remember most about that race, other than the fact that it was long—26 miles is a long way.

Neal:

Yeah.

Withbroe:

I was running with two women who were running the same speed I was, and they were talking to each other. One of them says to the other, “You know, there are two things you’d never do twice if you remembered pain—have babies and run marathons!” [Laughter] I always remember that conversation because running a marathon is painful when you don't know what you're doing, which for the first race I didn't. I ran two more just for real time.

Then essentially my grandkids. My oldest grandson went to Carleton. He finished tenth in the nationals, Division III, in the 800-yard run.

Neal:

Oh, wow.

Withbroe:

Or I guess it’s 800-meter run now. He’s now a computer programmer with Google. My second-oldest grandson is on the University of Iowa team on an athletic scholarship. And my youngest daughter has run 25 marathons.

Neal:

Wow.

Withbroe:

She’s got five kids. Well, one did not survive and one has special needs, and so she’s run 25 marathons.

Neal:

What does she do?

Withbroe:

She’s a delivery room… Well, she was a delivery room nurse at Regents here, and now she’s the head of education in that area.

Neal:

What about your other children?

Withbroe:

Other daughter was a vice president at National Women’s Law Center, head of development (the person that gets the money). Millions. I mean she’s good. Now she works for another non-profit as chief of staff. It’s in D.C. and is the one who gets them the money. She’s very good with dealing with rich people.

Neal:

Sure, sure.

Withbroe:

And she’s gotten to meet some interesting people like Ruth Bader Ginsburg.

Neal:

Oh, wow. Did either of them show any aptitude for science before this or was that…

Withbroe:

My second-youngest grandson here says he wants to be a scientist like his Papa, and he’s got the tools. When he did the AP’s, he took five subjects and got 5 in all five. He’s got a brain.

Neal:

So yeah, highest score. Yeah.

Withbroe:

And he scored very highly on the state chemistry test, and he’s only a junior.

Neal:

I’m curious, if you wouldn't mind going back to it because I meant to follow up on it earlier. But you said you had a blue-collar background. Did that ever affect your relationships or how you did things or how you interacted with scientists later in your career?

Withbroe:

No, because most people didn't know that I came from a blue-collar background. In some sense, MIT trumped that.

Neal:

Okay. Sure.

Withbroe:

And when you’ve got a PhD, people don't care what your background was. But I think it informed me, in a sense. As I say, diversity is… When you come from a different background, you tend to think a little differently than somebody who came from prep schools and always had, in some sense, an easy life, rich families.

Neal:

Sure. Were there any examples of that in your role at NASA headquarters?

Withbroe:

Well, I did get involved in a historically black program for that for a while.

Neal:

If you wouldn't mind describing a little bit more about that.

Withbroe:

We were trying to sponsor programs at several schools, historically black colleges. I had gotten a little bit involved, and then somehow fell away. But I always remember vividly one of the guys I was working with. He was an African American scientist and he said, “I’ll never forget talking to this young black kid. A jet plane went over and he looked up and he says, ‘I wish I could fly those like white guys can.’” I always remember that, you know, what it would be like to grow up in a disadvantaged community and not have the opportunities that I had, or don't think you have the opportunities. How do you get those opportunities up for those kids?

Neal:

Yeah. Well, that’s clearly very important work. Any other aspects of your career you wanted to talk about? Or any particular stories—

Withbroe:

Well, one of the things I really enjoyed at NASA headquarters was interacting with the press. Doing press conferences was a joy.

Neal:

And I imagine not everyone thought that.

Withbroe:

Because it’s payback and it’s working with reporters. They ask sometimes the dumbest questions, which are the toughest questions to answer. It was just dealing with reporters because they’re fascinating people and trying to convey what we’re doing and why for the public in a way the public can understand. I remember one of the press conferences we had before a shuttle launch. We had four of us from NASA there—the payload guy, the launch guy, and then two scientists. One of the reporters asked the two scientists something, and the guy next to me spouted a whole bunch of stuff and the reporter says, “Would you please repeat that in English?” I’m thinking to myself, “You just failed press conference 101. You talk in language that the public can understand. You don't use highfalutin scientific terms.” It was fun to think, “Okay. How do you take this complicated thing which we’re doing for some esoteric reason and show the public why that’s important?” I thought that was really fun and an important responsibility.

Neal:

Yeah. Were there any times when you felt that really succeeded?

Withbroe:

Generally I think I did pretty well at press conferences. I got a lot of questions usually, and so I think I was fairly successful at it.

Neal:

I guess I was just curious if there was any specific feedback of somebody saying, “Oh,” you know…

Withbroe:

Oh. Well, the very first press conference I was involved in was during Skylab. Well, a story. They one day gave an opportunity for one of the scientists to talk to the astronaut directly sitting next to the Capcom—that’s when they had Capcoms back in the day—and talk to the scientist in orbit directly. So I had a conversation with Owen Garriott, and every day during Skylab, the flight director had to give a press conference. So the day I talked to Owen, the flight director comes over and he says, “I’m sick of giving press conferences. Could you do the press conference today? I’m running out of things to say.”

So I went and worked with our team and our public relations people and came up with, “Okay, here are the points I’m going to make,” and went and made the points, had the press conference. So it was just me—all these reporters who every day are firing questions at the flight director, only they’re firing at this idiot scientist. As we’re going out of the room, the AP guy says, “We’ve got to get this guy back again. He’s quotable!” Wowee! That made me…I felt I succeeded. And sure enough, the next day there were quotes in the paper of the things I said because we very carefully thought about how do you grab the attention. I asked some people how to do that and got some good advice.

Neal:

Yeah, that’s great. I guess related to that, were there… So you were clearly following what was said. Did that end up coming into play in your time as an administrator where you had to gauge how interested the press was and the sort of publicity you were getting?

Withbroe:

Well, I just enjoyed doing it. It was just fun because the press, they’re just interested in getting a story, and our interest is giving them a story. So it’s a mutually beneficial thing, and so everybody tries to work to make sure it happens. You're basically working as a team.

Neal:

Absolutely. Well, this has been great. Are there any final thoughts you wanted to give or other things that you thought needed to be in the record?

Withbroe:

I guess my main thing is science can be fun.

Neal:

No disagreement here.

Withbroe:

Rewarding and fun.

Neal:

Well, thank you again, George. Again, this is Stephen Neal interviewing George Withbroe for the American Institute of Physics.

[End of recording]