Alma Kesner – Session I

Doel:

This is Ron Doel and this is an interview with Alma Kesner and today’s date is October 25, 1995 and we’re doing this interview in New York just outside Lamont Doherty Observatory itself. We’re going to be asking a lot about your experiences at Lamont in a few moments. But I’m curious about your early experiences prior to the time that you got to Lamont. Did you grow up in this area?

Kesner:

No. No, I was born on Horatio Street in New York City. I’m a real New Yorker. And we sort of bounced around New York and finally ended up in Long Island, Jamaica, and from there I moved to Bay Shore when I was married. But prior to that I was a director in a book club called The Heritage Club. Are you familiar with that at all?

Doel:

I’ve heard the name.

Kesner:

I have a lot of those books, Heritage books.

Doel:

And when were you married? What year was that?

Kesner:

I can’t remember. Isn’t that terrible. I can tell you how long I’ve been a widow but I can’t tell you how long I’ve been married. Isn’t that awful. You’re going to have to bear with me because I’ll be eighty-two next week and I kind of forget things along the path. I was the manager of the book club and then they started a new request to open up a new club which was going to be started with a cheaper version of The Heritage Club and asked me if I would start it and I did. I worked with them until I got married. The year was 1941. Then I left and I was home for twelve years. Just a plan old fashioned housewife. I was very happy after all the years of employment. And then my husband died. He’ll be dead forty years. From there I opened a flower shop in the town where I’m living now, Tappan, and didn’t stay with it too long because of the death of a member of my family. I then decided I’d better get into the real world so I answered an ad for the Lamont Geological Observatory as it was called in those days.

Doel:

Had you known of them at all before then?

Kesner:

Never. Never. I knew people who worked there. But I saw the ad in the paper they were looking for a plain ordinary typist and I was interviewed by Mr. Arnold [W.] Finck and he hired me. In those days when you went to apply for a job you wore gloves and a hat and that was a must. But anyway, the first few weeks I worked there I was very naive and I sat - - (if you know the Lamont Hall at all, which is the most beautiful building in the world,) directly as you come into the main hall, there was a switchboard to the right, and my desk came after the switchboard and then it opened into the Lamont living room, which was a tremendous beautiful room and that was where they held the Friday night parties; and also used for lunch periods, or quiet reading.

Doel:

Right, this is all on the first floor of Lamont.

Kesner:

All on the first floor of Lamont. So naturally being new and not knowing too many people, they all passed me about four o’clock in the afternoon and they’re all going to the library you know. Finally one day somebody came in and said Alma why don’t you join us. And I said I don’t think so. I usually go home right at five o’clock. “Oh come on,” he said. I think it was Jack [E.] Oliver. I know it wasn’t Denny [Dennis] Hayes; it was Jack Oliver. And so I went in and they were just starting the Columbia song. I heard that and I knew they were all well under the way. And there was a man sitting in the back of the room and I paid no attention. But Jack Oliver came over to me and said Alma you know I think what you better do is get to know people here. I said that would be very nice but I know quite a few because I’ve typed for them since I’m here. So he said ‘no’ he said, see that man over there in the corner, he has grey hair. I bet you ten dollars that you haven’t the guts to go over and stand in front of him and give him a kiss, or sit on his lap and give him a kiss. And I said — and this is without a drink.

Doel:

And this is you first party that you’ve gone to at Lamont?

Kesner:

My first party. So I said well I can’t be a party pooper. Over I go. But the minute I sat on his lap and gave him the kiss, I knew I did something wrong, very wrong. Because the man happened to be Dr. Maurice [W.] Ewing. Oh God. I was never so embarrassed in my life. And something else, Maurice Ewing never forgot it to the day he died. Because every time he’d see me he’d give me a big smirk and, you know, he’d say come over here. But anyway we had a lot of laughs.

Doel:

What were your impressions of Lamont as you began working there? Was it like other places you worked?

Kesner:

No, it was completely different. It was very informal. Dr. [Bruce C.] Heezen, Bruce and Marie [Tharp] worked on the first floor and they had a little office and inside of the office they had their bathroom which was completely equipped with all their scientific equipment. So that if you had to go into the bathroom, you had to move a lot of equipment before you could do what you wanted to do. And sometimes Marie and Bruce would spend the night there, all night long. Many a time when I was down, after I was at Lamont a few years, and I’d be working probably overtime. We didn’t have overtime. We just worked. No such thing as overtime. We were there and very often I’d be there until nine o’clock at night and I’d hear a pitter patter coming down the beautiful staircase that twirled around to the lower floor. And who would walk in but Dr. Ewing. No shoes on, just his socks and he would come over to see what I was doing and we’d chat for a few minutes and it was a very, very wonderful place to work.

Doel:

The piece, this one. We’ll put this on tape, a review of your work here.

Kesner:

I see. It was the happiest time of my life. Because I had gone through a trauma of losing my husband and having two children to raise. It wasn’t easy. And of course the salaries in those days were nil, you know. But anyway we thrived through everything. And I had many offers of other jobs but I wouldn’t accept them because I liked Lamont. I liked the people. With the exception of just maybe one or two that I can slightly remember, everyone was wonderful to work with.

Doel:

Just thinking back to the earliest of times when you joined Lamont, did you have much science at all in your training?

Kesner:

None.

Doel:

I’m curious how it was to work in an environment like Lamont’s.

Kesner:

It came very easy for me. As it was when I was running the book store. What I did in those days when I was in The Heritage Club and The Readers Club was when I was asked to start the club, I went to every book publisher in New York City.

Doel:

Is that right?

Kesner:

And I asked if I could see their operation and that’s how I learned. I had no idea of operating a book club. But I must have had something on the fire because they asked me to start a new book club. And they’d throw me into this empty space and say go from here.

Doel:

Quite a bit of trust.

Kesner:

Yes it was. And I think too that when I got to Lamont, I did the same thing. I was interested in every department. Now I know one story I can tell you. Of course working in Lamont in those days you had to be cleared by the government.

Doel:

Because of the classified research?

Kesner:

Classified research. Now they were doing classified research down in the basement and that was directly under where I was sitting. And all I would hear, Bernie [Bernard] Luskin and Harry Van Santford were working on this project. And they were driving me crazy because all I would hear all day would be “ping,” “ping.” So I finally christened it “the pinger.” I said to Harry I’m going to christen that thing that you have downstairs. It’s driving me mad I said. It’s going “ping,” “ping” all day long. That’s all right you can call it what you want. Then Bernie Luskin came up one day after I was promoted from typist to chief purchasing agent — I was the purchasing agent.

Doel:

Right, you were the purchasing agent.

Kesner:

I was the purchasing agent. And accounts payable.

Doel:

Right. And this was already in 1958, wasn’t it?

Kesner:

'58 yes.

Doel:

'57, '58.

Kesner:

'57. Anyway, where was I now?

Doel:

You were mentioning about the pinger downstairs.

Kesner:

Oh yes, so Bernie Luskin came up one day and I said Bernie I know I can’t ask you this question, but am I getting all your supplies on time. I know you’re working on a special project. So he said, oh Alma you’re doing fine. There’s only one thing I want, I want something and I have to have it tomorrow because we’re going to use this very shortly. And he said you will be the first to know from me just what you were buying and what it was for. Well I didn’t have to wait too long because the next day in the newspapers it came out that the Nautilus was going under the ice flow and when the Nautilus would come to an ice barricade where they could not go over or under, this instrument would go “ping,” “ping” into their cockpit. What would you call it — a submarine? Well, whatever.

Doel:

I know what you mean.

Kesner:

You know what I mean. That was it was called. I said, “Oh that was my pinger.” So he says that’s right. So that was the kind of work that we used to do. It was so interesting because most of the people when they working on classified would always come and tell me, after it was declassified, what it was all about.

Doel:

Right.

Kesner:

It made it so interesting.

Doel:

How many people were working on the classified projects when you think back?

Kesner:

Everybody was supposed to at that time. There were about 25 or 30. Everybody in the main house had to be classified.

Doel:

You mean that everybody had their security clearance but not everyone was working on classified projects.

Kesner:

No, not everyone was working on it but if you were associated in any way with it, even though you weren’t physically involved you had to be classified.

Doel:

Right. What level was your clearance that you got?

Kesner:

I don’t even remember. I don’t remember. But I know I was classified and cleared.

Doel:

When you think back on it, how many nights did you have to stay say until eight or nine in the evening. How often would that kind of schedule affect you?

Kesner:

Kind of frequently. Especially being the one purchasing. And of course don’t forget, I had accounts payable. And not to be unkind to Columbia, but they gave me a difficult time. They did not want to part with any part of their authority whatsoever. And it was just infuriating me because it was holding me back so. When the boys came in and they said Alma I have to have this by next week. “I can’t get it for you by next week.” The best I can probably promise is maybe two weeks at the rate it’s going with Columbia, you see.

Doel:

Because everything had to go through Columbia’s office before it came back to you.

Kesner:

Yes. And Of course that was a few years later of struggling and fighting and arguing with Columbia and trying to prove that I was capable of calling up and getting a purchase order number over the phone and so I could either send one of the boys down to pick it up ourselves or have it shipped out immediately. So it did help a little bit but I wasn’t quite satisfied. I wanted to reach the point where I could issue my own purchase orders directly from my office. And it never quite happened. Even to this day it hasn’t happened.

Doel:

One thing that you mentioned in the document that you prepared and this is much further into maybe in the 70s you were still fighting for this.

Kesner:

And they were going to let me do it but whatever happened after I left, I don’t know. And in fact, I wish I was still up there at Lamont. Because I loved the place so.

Doel:

You said something interesting in talking about how you learned in the book club by going to the individual publishers. Did you do the same when you were at Lamont? Did you go to the different centers that were emerging, such as chemistry, and get to know all the chiefs of the different divisions?

Kesner:

Yes. And it was very interesting. Also not only did I have to buck Columbia but I also had to buck the government, because we were all under a grant as you know and the boys were working very hard on so many grants for money. That was our second game was the money. The point just slipped my mind. So, there’s a punch line to it too. I hate to pull this on you but blame in on old age, that’s all. Maybe I better go to something else it will hit me again.

Doel:

That’s fine we can come back to that at any point. I’m curious when you joined already in 1956 was the first time you began working at Lamont.

Kesner:

Yes.

Doel:

There were a number of other named facilities that were emerging. Larry [J. Laurence] Kulp’s geochemistry facility. You met him I imagine?

Kesner:

Oh yes I met him several times over the years. They were quite separate from the rest of Lamont. They had started and they had their own geochemistry building and they did their own purchasing and they did their own accounts payable. And they were connected — Elsie Grafo I believe was there at that time. She still was for many years and she did all her own work.

Doel:

Why was it split that way?

Kesner:

It was that Dr. Kulp wanted to be a complete separation from the Observatory under Dr. Ewing. There was a little conflict there, not a conflict but a little independence. Dr. Kulp wanted to get his material fast and things of that kind. So we had no connection until the later years when Dr. Ewing said this is not a way to run business. We all combine. So they sent all their paper work over to my office along with the girl who did it, Elsie Grafo. That was a great help. So it was the same thing but sitting in my office. But then she had to do things my way.

Doel:

But then it was consolidated?

Kesner:

It will come back.

Doel:

What other centers at Lamont do you recall visiting when you were first coming on to campus in addition to Larry Kulp’s operation?

Kesner:

Oh there’s the core lab, Dave [David B.] Ericson.

Doel:

What are your recollections of Dave Ericson?

Kesner:

Dave was a character. He was a wonderful person. In fact I have his book up here that he wrote and he autographed it for me. And I understand Dave Ericson just died recently. Some girl called me from Lamont. Now you can imagine what they think of me at Lamont when they call me and ask me if I’d write an obituary for Dave Ericson.

Doel:

You found out quite a bit when you wrote that?

Kesner:

Well anyway, Dave, well we went to the core lab. Then we had the, the first building was the — I forget the buildings. Isn’t that terrible? Oceanography was built after the Marine Biology that was the next building that was built. And of course my other chores beside doing what I was doing at Lamont, in other words being the purchasing supervisor — Now by this time I had help and things were going along rather smoothly then.

Doel:

Is this already the 1960s?

Kesner:

Yes.

Doel:

You were mentioning about coming into contact with folks in the core lab and which buildings were being developed?

Kesner:

Oh this is what I want to tell you. The core lab was the first place I had been. And Harry Van Santford had his office directly in the main building underneath. He was in the cellar. He would make the eels for the cores that were used aboard the Vema. And I said before, the government would come in to review me and pull up purchase orders and say why did you buy this and why didn’t you get a bid on that? And why is it not classified when it’s over a thousand dollars? So I would have to sometimes think up a really good excuse or tell the truth. Well this time I could tell the truth. Because directly outside of my office was an eel, (they used to call them,) that Harry Van Santford was working on and it was stretching from, we’re up on the second floor, on the second floor, down the stairway to where Harry was working on the first floor. Oh that was in the Butler building, excuse me. This was in the Butler Building.

Doel:

Now when did you go into the Butler Building?

Kesner:

From Lamont Hall, about 62 or 63. So anyway all I did to this auditor. I said, well auditor answer this question? Here’s the purchase order number and the reason it wasn’t classified as a piece of permanent equipment, you come with me. So he got up and we walked out to the hallway. I said they call this an eel and it’s going down and it’s going down the stairs and it’s going right into Mr. Harry Van Santford’s office. He’s working on it at the moment. Now you see how eel is constructed. I said it’s plastic, has wires going through it and little batteries going through it. Would you call that a piece of permanent equipment when it’s dropped behind the Vema in 50 fathoms of water? He looked at me and said say no more. He said I’m through for the day. So little things like that would please me. Especially when I’d been in the core lab and they showed the cores and the equipment used aboard the Vema you see. And when the cores came back from the Vema they were all packed in cylindrical tubes and then they were slit out and then they were dissected, the cure.

Doel:

And you saw those operations go on?

Kesner:

I saw all these operations, yes. In fact when I was having a terrible time with Columbia. The people from Columbia were very ignorant of what we were doing up at Lamont.

Doel:

This is the Columbia administration?

Kesner:

Columbia administration. Purchasing and so forth down there. And I used to have arguments and arguments with the people I worked with, the other purchasing agents down there you know. And about how you can’t classify something as permanent even though it’s over five hundred dollars. Everything over five hundred dollars to a thousand was considered permanent. So I said I have to do something about this. This is terrible. So I went to Arnold Finck and I also went to Dr. Ewing. I asked if I could have permission to bring the whole purchasing department from Columbia up to Lamont, invite them for lunch and then I will give them a tour of Lamont and show them various pieces of equipment and if they could see it personally, they would understand why you cannot classify some as permanent and some as expendable. Of course it was in December, the weather was very unpredictable. We did get everybody up to Lamont as we wanted to but it snowed. It snowed so badly we couldn’t get from building to building. We did introduce a lot of the scientists to them who explained and brought samples of things, you know. And we had a nice lunch. And our rapport after that was very, very pleasant. We saw each other in other words, a face on face. We knew what we were talking about and they could see we were not making up stories when we said an eel cannot be classified as permanent equipment. And things of that kind. And not only that but when we had permanent equipment we had to tag all the things and it was a lot of extra work, and if something happened to it we were responsible.

Doel:

It sounds like a very good way to educate them.

Kesner:

Oh yes. And then besides doing my work Lamont as you know, — you’ve been up to Lamont before this haven’t you?

Doel:

Yes.

Kesner:

Many times. Has the most beautiful garden that you ever saw in your life. When I was there. I don’t know what it’s like now.

Doel:

That’s the garden that stretches out in front of Lamont Hall?

Kesner:

Well, yes it goes from there over to the old machine shop which is still there but I don’t know what it’s used for now.

Doel:

Right.

Kesner:

They change them around so frequently. Dr. Worzel [J. Lamar] was there. He was the assistant director. Now his wife and I — she’s a flower lover too — we would sneak in a piece of property off Lamont and plant tulips and we’d plant. She did an awful lot of planting out in back. Cut flowers. And I would get to Lamont maybe about seven o’clock in the morning and she would meet me with all the flowers that she could cut and I would make arrangements and we’d sell them at lunchtime and with the money she got she’d buy more flowers, bulbs and seeds for future use.

Doel:

That’s interesting.

Kesner:

Yes. We did that for many years. So you know every time Doc had a party or we had a party at Lamont or if we had a special occasion like the dedication of a new building and that sort of thing, Doc would call me and ask me if I would do the flowers. So I said sure, of course. So I did all the flowers for them, arrangements. But of course I had to see where everybody was going to sit so I didn’t have a bunch of flowers in front of somebody who was going to talk, you know. And then I was talking to you too before about the machine shop. That was another little place that was separate from the Lamont Hall. That was done with all the fabrication of the inventions and whatever Doe thought about or Joe Worzel wanted to have done.

Doel:

All the instruments that needed to be developed.

Kesner:

All. Everything. Angelo Ludas was in charge of that and it was funny because he would have a Christmas party every single year. But no women were allowed in the machine shop.

Doel:

How did you feel about that?

Kesner:

We all laughed. So we had our own party. But then after a while I used to talk to Ange. And I said Ange come on. We’re all big girls now. He says you’re likely to go down the cellar. I said not with you I wouldn’t go in the cellar. So anyway he did. One year he did invite, and he had the women into the machine shop and so we put a big flag up for that one.

Doel:

Was this also in the 1960s before you had your first party?

Kesner:

Yes. Then they started a cafeteria and that was particularly only for one type of person that was the student.

Doel:

You were saying about the students?

Kesner:

Yes, Doe was very, very concerned about the students and he wanted to have a service where the poor fellows could eat lunch. So when the Butler Building was built, adjacent to the Butler Building was the swimming pool that the Lamont had, indoor, gorgeous beautiful swimming pool. So they decided that a swimming pool was very impractical for the Lamont students, but a cafeteria would be more appropriate. So they immediately dismantled the swimming pool, put up a beautiful cafeteria as far as a room is concerned. As far as cafeteria equipment, zilch, nothing. We had to do that the hard way.

Doel:

So you just had separate temporary plain cooking facilities?

Kesner:

So all we had to do is to take a few of the old library tables that were not being used, line them up on one side of the room which was just occupied with extra tables and chairs and we would go down — Alice Hoffer was the originator of this little chore. She would go down to the A&P or wherever and buy cold cuts and all kinds of salads and in the winter it would be soups and a sandwich and we did splurge and bought a big coffee maker. So we could serve coffee, sandwiches and milk. That was their lunch. But then it started to get to be that it would be too much for one person to run alone because she had other chores to do too. So then they brought me into it after many years. And I was not only chief cook and bottle washer, but lots of times when I was busy in my own office the girls would call me and say could you come down please and taste the soup, it doesn’t taste right to me.

Doel:

This was when you would go from the Butler Building?

Kesner:

Then I would go through the Butler Building across to the cafeteria.

Doel:

Wearing many hats seemed to be very characteristic of work at Lamont?

Kesner:

Oh yes. And of course my most — when Ange retired from the machine shop, he was a wonderful man.

Doel:

What sort of person was he?

Kesner:

He was an individual who was rough and ready. He adored Doc [Maurice] Ewing. Well between him and Doc Ewing they invented the SOFAR in Bermuda. And he would do anything for Doe and he lived right on the grounds you know. He had the building right on the grounds.

Doel:

I didn’t know that. He had a little.

Kesner:

He had a house.

Doel:

A house right on the grounds.

Kesner:

See there were a few houses all around. Joe Worzel lived in one. Dr. [John E.] Nafe too. Dr. Nafe lived in another. And then they had a few that were given to select scientists who were here, probably with their families. And then they had the buildings and grounds man who was, Ange got this house first because he was in charge of the machine shop. But after Ange died then they gave it to the man who would run the grounds. In other words Ray [Raymond T.] Long. You know Ray Long?

Doel:

I know of him.

Kesner:

Ang was very honest, very hard working. He would work until sometimes one o’clock in the morning with Doe, or with Joe Worzel or whoever happened to have this equipment that were interested in getting ready for a certain cruise or to try whatever it was. And he was very, very — He was also a party man. He loved a party. And we had a lot of good times together. His wife was adorable. In fact, just to tell you how close we were as working partners. His daughter died very young and he wouldn’t let anybody go near the coffin but me, because I made a little floral arrangement. He wanted me to put it near her hands, “Don’t cover her hands Alma.” Because she had the most beautiful hands of anybody I had ever seen. She had gorgeous hands.

Doel:

It must have been devastating.

Kesner:

It was devastating for him. And after that Ange was never the same. And then his wife developed cancer and she died. And he didn’t last at Lamont too long after that.

Doel:

When was it that that happened, the daughter’s death?

Kesner:

Oh his daughter’s death was 1960 something. I forget the real date. You have to look into that. Oh, while I had the cafeteria running, Angelo decided he was going to retire. I told him he was making a mistake because if you’re going to retire Ange you’re going to have to leave the house here at Lamont. So he said well I’m going upstate, up near — oh I should be able to get the date from one of my mass cards.

Doel:

That can always be added to the interview.

Kesner:

Well anyway he went upstate to live. I drove up a few times to see him you know. Because we were very friendly. We were old time friends you know. I’d go in there sometimes on a Saturday morning or a Sunday afternoon just to say something or to bring something to his wife Lenore and I’d be there all day. We’d be drinking. Sometimes I don’t know how I got home, but I was all right. I was young then. But anyhow we put out all the spread for his retirement. Everybody at Lamont came to Ange’s party and Doc was due in about, let’s see nine o’clock, he was supposed to be there at the party to say farewell to his dear friend. Well I’m in the kitchen getting everything squared away and who comes into the kitchen but Harriet [Ewing], that’s Doc’s wife.

Doel:

Right.

Kesner:

And she said Alma I just had a call from Doc. He’s not going to make it. Oh I said what a disappointment for Angelo. It’s his last day at Lamont you know. Well she said, “You’re not going to like this, I have to tell you what he said.” And I said “What?” “You have to give the farewell speech.” Me. I said no way. I never spoke in front of a group of people like this. There’s Dennie Hayes outside, there’s Joe Worzel. Why doesn’t one of them do it? “Doc said it has to be you.” Well I was stupid. I never asked him why he did that to me.

Doel:

Do you have any idea why?

Kesner:

I haven’t any idea. Maybe it’s getting even for kissing him that first time. I don’t know. But anyhow, I got through it but don’t ask me how. And Ange says to me, “Hey Alma that was pretty good you know what you said about me but I would have preferred Doc.” I said, “You’re telling me. You would prefer him. I was wishing he would walk in any minute.” Oh dear. But there were so many of those funny things that we had. And everybody was so pleasant, everybody. I don’t think I ever had a cross word with anyone. And oh there was one episode that was so trivial that it didn’t matter.

Doel:

This was a person that left Lamont?

Kesner:

He left Lamont, yes. He tried to put me up on charges because I would not allow him to go out and buy material that he needed and not go through the usual form you know. And while I handed all the petty cash, I was not about to give this man a hundred dollars for going out to buy his material. Everybody in the place would be coming through for cash. This was for emergency things up to about forty dollars, fifty dollars tops. So he brought me up to Doctor Ewing.

Doel:

What happened at that point?

Kesner:

And Dr. Ewing called me that morning. And he said Alma, you’ve been brought up on charges and I want you here. See I can’t even remember his name. He came from California. And he wasn’t with us very long.

Doel:

Again, don’t trouble yourself. We will make sure once we have the transcript ready that you have a chance to add those names.

Kesner:

Yeah, okay. So anyway he called me up to the office and he had me sitting at his desk and he said I’m not going to tell you what’s it all about Alma. But when he comes, he’ll tell you himself. He walked into the room and saw me sitting there and was amazed. He was just taken aback. So Doc said now you didn’t think for one minute that I was going to let you charge Alma with neglect to help you with your science because you can’t buy things against our rules and regulations. That I would let you come and tell me the story without having Alma answer the question. He said but I’m not even going to let Alma talk You know what I’m going to tell you. He said if it wasn’t for this woman sitting here, half of the supplies would never get through to Lamont. He disliked Columbia very much.

Doel:

Talking about Doc Ewing.

Kesner:

Yes, talking about Doc Ewing. Because he was a scientist through and through and everything was held up because of paperwork and he didn’t want that to be. And so he said that if it wasn’t for me we wouldn’t be as far as we were at that stage. And if you don’t want to go with our rules and regulations, you’ll have to go back to California. So he read the riot act to him. Very nicely though. And when we left the office, Doc Ewing shook my hand and he said now don’t get upset about it. He said, but we have to set these boys straight, otherwise they’re going to make a mess of your whole department. Well I said no they won’t because they wouldn’t get any money. And when they spend their money and don’t get reimbursed, they’ll soon stop. So anyway, he laughed. He said yeah that’s right too.

Doel:

Was that typical of how Ewing handled personal relationships at Lamont?

Kesner:

Not always. That was the first and only time he ever did that to me. He usually let me answer all my own problems you know. But I was surprised.

Doel:

You were giving a lot of responsibility and let to go.

Kesner:

Let to go, yes. And the only thing I do feel bad about is I never got down to Columbia enough. Because I was too busy. Not only with purchasing, but accounts payable and also the restaurant, you know the cafeteria. And all the little things I had to do. Very often I would be very, very busy and either Harriet or Doe or somebody from that office would call and say Doe is expecting company tomorrow from California. And they’re having their lunch served in there by the caterer. And I said all right, what do you want? They’d want a lovely centerpiece because that Lamont Hall living room or ballroom, as we called it, was so big the table went from there down to where I’m sitting. Now if you put a little pot on that, it would look lost. So he said he wanted something very impressive on there.

Doel:

We’re talking about at least twenty-five feet?

Kesner:

Oh sure. So I would make a centerpiece that long (about four or five feet). But don’t forget I had the most wonderful surplus supply. Just went into the garden with my shears, or my knife I should say and cut it out. Oh I loved that. I have lots of letters just like that I have downstairs. Thank you for that, you know. But they were good days.

Doel:

Did you have much contact with the Geology Department at Columbia at all?

Kesner:

Not too much. All my contact really down there was the purchasing. Miss [Adeline M.J. Elia] in Kent, accounts payable. Oh boy, she was something else.

Doel:

How was she something else?

Kesner:

She ran accounts payable at Columbia University and she was a toughie. In order to pass any good marks in her class, I had to be on my toes constantly. And one time I wanted her to come up here. And she did, she came up. And she said, “While I’m in the building, she said, I’m going to go up and see Doc Ewing.” I said, “Go right ahead. He’s up on the second floor.” She says, “I know where he is.” She went up there. I didn’t go with her. She went up and she came back and she was furious. I said, “What happened?” She said, “Who does he think he is up there, God?” I said, “What are you talking about?” She said, “Why he was coming out of his office and I was walking up the aisle to meet him, when his secretary came back and said to me, please step out of the way, Dr. Ewing wants to pass.” She never did say hello to Dr. Ewing. Never said a word to anybody. Just came down and blew her stack at me. You don’t have to quote that. This is the type of person I had to put up with. And while it was true there were lots of little mistakes I did make in the very beginning, but I soon caught on. And I knew the rules and regulations and after a few interviews with the auditors from Washington, D.C., I knew where I had to keep my tongue in my mouth and what I had to do.

Doel:

I’m sorry I didn’t mean to interrupt. I was curious how often the auditors did come to Lamont?

Kesner:

Once a year.

Doel:

Once a year?

Kesner:

Uh huh. And when they came up they meant business. Because they loved to catch us in a lot so they could discontinue our money you see. And it was dependent on that that you got a good mark on how we spent the money and it was done according to their rules and regulations. And we never had a bad mark. Thank God.

Doel:

This is of course the Navy money and the National Science Foundation?

Kesner:

Oh sure. National Science Foundation and Navy. Oh I had quite a time with it.

Doel:

Is there any particular recollection from the auditing that comes to mind?

Kesner:

The one fellow I told you about with the eel. The rest of them were always businesslike. No fooling around. No nonsense. And I was glad when they left. You can well imagine.

Doel:

Did that take one or two days when they were there?

Kesner:

Oh sometimes three or four. It was according to the way I presented. The reason I didn’t put something in permanent equipment. And I would always say to them if you don’t want to take my word for it, I will have the author of that piece of equipment come down here and explain it to you in full. So he said no it wouldn’t be necessary.

Doel:

And this was of course the classified as well as the non-classified research that was all done.

Kesner:

That’s right. And then of course there was — now let’s see. And oh of course we were so busy in purchasing when the ships came in. That was another thing I loved. Captain [Henry C.] Kohler was a wonderful, wonderful skipper.

Doel:

He was of course the skipper of the Vema.

Kesner:

The skipper of the Vema. The reason being when I first joined Lamont in 1956 I was sitting in the main hall typing a paper for someone, it might have been Dr. [Manik] Talwani. And everybody started to pile out of the Observatory, out of the building. So I can’t remember who it was but, someone said come on don’t sit there and type, come with us. You’re going to see a beautiful sight in a few minutes. I said what is that? “The Vema is coming in after an eight month voyage. And she’s going to come up the Hudson under full sail.” Well just thinking about it right now makes me cry. I went up with them and here this gorgeous ship was coming up. It was a day like this, coming up the Hudson under full sail. Ah, it was the most beautiful sight I ever saw in my life.

Doel:

I can imagine. Where were you looking at it from?

Kesner:

From the hilltop where the Oceanography Building stands now. There was nothing up there. We went through the woods, all the way to the top of the cliff.

Doel:

Right and you had a view of the Hudson.

Kesner:

A view of the Hudson. Oh.

Doel:

Beautiful, clear, cool, crisp day.

Kesner:

And we had that. From that time I just fell in love with the Vema. That was my baby.

Doel:

It was a romantic ship.

Kesner:

Ah she was a romantic person. Oh great. In fact so much so that when they sold her to the tune of $65,000 — Whoever did that should be ashamed of themselves. $65,000. That gorgeous, beautiful ship! When they sold it out, it was done very poorly, very badly. Poor Captain Kohler had no idea it was being sold until he came to New York that year.

Doel:

That must have been a shock to him.

Kesner:

He came here to my house and he said, “How can they do this to me? At least if I had known what was happening, when I left Cape Town, I could have made some plans.” And his wife was with him too, she was on the cruise. I was going to tell you something about that too, but I forgot

Doel:

About that particular cruise or the decision to sell the Vema?

Kesner:

The decision to sell. There was something else I was going to tell you but it will come back to me like the other one did before. You have anything else to ask me in the meantime? You think you’re through?

Doel:

Nope.

Kesner:

Nope. You want to break for lunch?

Doel:

Sure. Whenever you feel like taking a break. This is a good time now.

Doel:

We’re resuming right now after a lunch break. One of the things that we spoke about briefly at lunch and I want to make sure that we have that on tape. You started to tell me early in the interview that you been to a party at Lamont Doherty very soon after. That you joined in the staff there. Were you frequently at Lamont parties thereafter?

Kesner:

Oh thereafter I automatically went. When the groups started I said all right I’ll come in and have one or two and then I had to go. Because I had another job see.

Doel:

Oh I didn’t know that. What was your other job?

Kesner:

My other job was I worked for a doctor in Tappan, New York. And I used to work in the evenings.

Doel:

How often did you work?

Kesner:

In the evenings. Like Wednesday night, probably Thursday night and then Saturday afternoon. After all I had two girls and soon after my husband’s death it just wasn’t enough. So I had to take, get — especially since Jane wanted to become a nurse and I sent her to St. Vincent’s Hospital School of Nursing and that cost money.

Doel:

When did you start that second job? Was that in the 1960s, the 70s?

Kesner:

In the 1970s. And then unfortunately the doctor died and then I never went back. I tried to find another job and things started to get better for me and I could manage then on my own.

Doel:

Up to the time of your retirement. I wonder what you recall from the parties particularly in the late 50s and 1960s when you were on the staff. Were you at the parties quite often?

Kesner:

Oh yes, yes.

Doel:

Who would come to them? Would it be?

Kesner:

George [H.] Sutton. George would always sing. And I forget whether it was the alma mater.

Doel:

The Columbia alma mater.

Kesner:

The Columbia alma mater. I used to know the words bit by bit. But I’ve forgotten them all. And then we would have Christmas parties. That was done, now in the house that we stayed, the main house.

Doel:

The Lamont House.

Kesner:

The Lamont House. It was my job every year to put the Christmas wreath on the door. I would do that. I would go out and cut branches, make the wreath and put it up on the door. I’m jumping around too much here. I know I am. And whoever has to do this dictation is going to kill me for this.

Doel:

You were recalling the parties from the social scene at Lamont in the late 50s and early 60s.

Kesner:

Well we had a housekeeper who with the Lamont people. That was Alma and Harold Smith. They were a couple who stayed on this job as long as they lived from the Lamont people. As long as Lamont was giving this house, they wanted to be sure.

Doel:

That they were covered.

Kesner:

That they were covered. So they had an apartment on the first floor and it used to drive us mad when she’d start cooking about three o’clock or four o’clock in the afternoon. But she was very kind. She used to have a few of the students in for dinner.

Doel:

That’s interesting. Which students do you recall in particular?

Kesner:

Oh. Well. Manik Talwani was one of them I’m sure. And Bruce was another.

Doel:

Bruce Heezen of course. Was Frank Press part of that?

Kesner:

Frank Press, no. Yes he was. But see Frank Press went out when I came in sort of. And of course where this whole Observatory started was in the basement of Columbia University you know.

Doel:

That’s right.

Kesner:

You know that?

Doel:

This is after World War II?

Kesner:

After World War II, yes. And it wasn’t until recently I just found out what that secret invention was that was being operated out of Bermuda. I learned that not too long ago. Well anyway, Alma was very kind to all the students. And if she knew I was working late or Doc was up in his office, she’d always come with a cup of coffee or something around ten o’clock. It was like living at home really. And she would have a Christmas party for all the children of the scientific group. And they would be all invited. And she would bake cookies and she would bake cakes and she would, oh she would have some spread. And then Harold worked too. He worked with Harry Van Santford for a little bit and then he worked in various departments as a helper. He was a very nice person too. And they lived on for years until they finally retired from Lamont and went down to Leisure Village in New Jersey. Retired down there. Harold died first and then Alma died. I was very good friends with Alma for a number of years. But she was a great help in the house. She sometimes would have maybe a group of women in for lunch and she was a lovely person. She worked for the Rockefellers, too, at one time.

Doel:

Were those parties that were held on Friday afternoons an important social event for Lamont? Would most people at Lamont generally try to come to them?

Kesner:

Well there were so few of us. Most of the scientists were housed right at Lamont Hall so they all have their little niche, Jack Nafe and all the rest of them. The only one off campus or off the Lamont grounds, off the Lamont home, was geochemistry at one end and the machine shop. And that’s all we had. And then of course later came the Core Lab and then the Marine Biology Building, then the Butler Building and then the cafeteria. And the Oceanography was the last. Then there was one other building put up later than the Oceanography Building, that was behind the Marine Biology Building and I forget what it’s called now. I told you there are some things I can’t remember.

Doel:

These are things we’ll put in the final transcript. Were those parties something that Larry Kulp would have come to?

Kesner:

No, no.

Doel:

He and his group really were socially separate as well.

Kesner:

Separate as well.

Doel:

That’s interesting.

Kesner:

They were completely separate. They had their own Christmas party and we had ours. Very strange. And of course I didn’t go into geochemistry too much because I wasn’t part of it, you see.

Doel:

They stayed by themselves?

Kesner:

Yes.

Doel:

You came to know Bruce Heezen fairly well? What were your impressions of Bruce in the early days?

Kesner:

Bruce was a tough taskmaster. He was very temperamental. He would fly off the handle for nothing at all. Fly off the handle at Marie Tharp. But as a team they were fantastic. He was very demanding. He wanted perfection and if he got what he considered perfection from you, you were his friend for life. And I tried to understand his predicaments. To know that when he needed something, he wasn’t fooling. I did this with everyone no matter who it was. But particularly with Bruce because sometimes he would be here today and gone tomorrow and he wanted it before tomorrow. And these are the things I couldn’t convince Columbia about. They couldn’t understand until, as I explained before, I got the whole group together to note the urgency of our needs. The urgency of our requests. They weren’t something I was making up. After that I didn’t have too much problems, too many problems. But I did in a way that were still not fast enough for the Observatory and their urgency to get their work done. Because more work meant more money.

Doel:

It was critical for Lamont’s budget.

Kesner:

Oh it was critical for Lamont. For the budget. But Bruce was very fair I’d say. Sometimes if you interview people now — Mildred Rippey for instance. There was gal who was over a hundred when she died. She died very recently. She worked for Bruce for a while and they got along terribly. But that’s the close association. You see I was associated with him but in my own office and he knew he could get service. But if you worked as a typist or whatever, sometimes he was a little rough on the person. But I was always fond of Bruce, always. I don’t think there was any person there, as I told you, that I really had any problems with or they had problems with me I guess. My philosophy always has been, you do your job right and in your heart if you know you’re doing right, you can’t be all wrong.

Doel:

How often would you see Bruce and Marie outside at Lamont?

Kesner:

Oh quite frequently when I was working full time. Marie would invite me up to her house if she was having a lot of work done and she had forty-nine or fifty people working all over the ground.

Doel:

Is that right?

Kesner:

Yes. She put a nice house up in Nyack, which I was there many a times. Gorgeous, right on the Hudson. And I got a few boys to work for her and she was very fond of them. Conscientious boys. And then Bruce of course lived here in Piermont. He had a lovely home in Piermont. After, I believe she got that when Bruce died.

Doel:

It was willed to her.

Kesner:

It was willed to her, yes. But I was always fond of Marie. A little on the slap happy side but she didn’t care about anything else but her work. And I believe she’s still the same today.

Doel:

When you say that, what are you thinking about in particular? Are there any recollections that come to mind just now?

Kesner:

Well I told you about the flowers. And I told you about when her place burned down, she sat there. And she’d probably sit there until today if we didn’t come along to help her.

Doel:

As I said you did tell me some things at lunch and I want to make sure that those are on tape, otherwise they won’t be available.

Kesner:

Oh. And then of course when we went out, or were invited to Columbia for a formal affair, Bruce would come and say Alma will you go over, I’m going to pick you up, but I’ll drop you at Marie’s just to make sure she’s dressed properly because it would be just like her to wear sneakers with a long evening gown. And sure enough I’d get there and I’d say Marie let me see your feet and she held it up and sure enough she’d have sneakers on. You can’t wear those. You know I even brought extra shoes in case she could. Oh she was very funny. These things didn’t matter to her. She would go and attend these parties and she’d be off talking to a million people and all on her own. This was what she liked and she didn’t care how she looked. But she was always a fine person.

Doel:

Just to make sure we have something about it on the tape, you mentioned at lunch that when you had dropped over to her house a dozen roses, she immediately put them in a milk jug.

Kesner:

Well on the spur of the moment, Bruce would call me at the office or sometimes here in the house, and he would say, “Alma we’re having a little dinner party tonight, come over and join us.” Okay, well one night I did ask any special occasion. He said, “Yeah it’s going to be a very fancy party. I have a butler and I have maid coming and I want you to come. It’s Marie’s birthday.” Oh I said fine I’ll be there, what time? He said about eight o’clock. So of course buying for Marie is impossible so I bought a dozen roses. And then I arrived. Sure enough the maid was there, the butler was there. The table was set beautifully and I gave Marie the roses. She said, “Oh, I’ll put them in water and I’ll bring them out.” And she did. She brought them out. She put the roses in a regular, old fashioned milk bottle and put it right on the center of this gorgeous table. The poor table. Oh dear. Bruce said that’s Marie. No we had good times. I think that was held in Marie’s house and Marie had an old fashioned stove which was beautiful. You know those old black stoves?

Doel:

Is this at the house on Washington at the river?

Kesner:

At the river. Yeah, she used to have a lot of parties down there too.

Doel:

You were saying she had an old black stove?

Kesner:

Black stove. I wonder if she still has it. I imagine she does. Knowing Marie she would have it. I have to call her next week. See what’s cooking.

Doel:

These would be parties for staff members and people visiting Lamont?

Kesner:

Not necessarily. It could be friends of theirs. Maybe neighbors. Or it could be part of the staff. And sometimes I would be there and I would be the only one strange to everybody else because Bruce knew them, Marie knew them, but I never met these people before. And it was all right. There wasn’t anything to do but be entertained and entertain somebody else, you know. We had a good friendship that’s all I can tell you about them because they were wonderful people. It’s just too bad that Bruce died so prematurely that’s all.

Doel:

Right. He died in 1977 as I recall.

Kesner:

'77, yes. And then of course another one who was one of my favorite people too was Bill [William L.] Donn. Now you know about Bill Donn. He died too and I went to his services. They were held right at Lamont Hall. It’s going to make me sound as though I’m a terrible drinker, but he would call me at the office and he’d say to me, it’s Friday night Alma. Meet you over at my house, we’ll have a martini. I’d say, okay. Now he had a beautiful home over on Piermont, right on the river. And when you would go through his home, you’d come in the front door, go through his living room, go through part of his dining room, and come out; open up and you would think you were in a different world. The Hudson was right there. Right on the Hudson. It was beautiful and I used to have one martini with him because I was always afraid of martinis. And his wife was lovely. I believe she’s still acting; she’s still a doctor in Piermont. I think she works from the home. She was a child’s doctor, a pediatrician.

Doel:

These are all part of history one way or another, I suspect. How well did you come to know Bill Donn?

Kesner:

Oh very well. His wife in fact was the pediatrician for my granddaughter for a while, and I’ve known Bill ever since I worked at Lamont.

Doel:

What sort of person was he?

Kesner:

Very kind. I don’t think I could say a bad word about Bill. He was wonderful. He didn’t approve of some things Doc did and — other than talk — because I approved of Doe, you know. Although I associated so closely with these people, how could I say? I’m not a scientist. Therefore I couldn’t sit down and speak to him about his work. It would always be on personal things or how we make an apple pie or would you like to come to my house for dinner and a few drinks. Those were relaxing associations.

Doel:

But did he talk to you also about how Ewing was running the Laboratory?

Kesner:

Oh yes. Sometimes they didn’t have a very nice comment about that either. It seems as though if they wrote a paper, Doc would always want to put his name on it.

Doel:

Is that right?

Kesner:

And they resented it, see? Did somebody tell you that already?

Doel:

It’s not uncommon in facilities where there’s a strong director for him to want a name on the paper. These were on papers where Ewing had not actually participated at all?

Kesner:

That’s right. So they didn’t quite like that. But on the whole they all respected Dr. Ewing tremendously.

Doel:

Were there other areas where say Bill Donn would have concerns about Ewing’s direction?

Kesner:

That I wouldn’t know really.

Doel:

It wasn’t something that came up when you would talk. it would be mostly things like the authorship.

Kesner:

That’s right.

Doel:

You started to tell me too at lunchtime and you made a reference to it earlier in the recording about Lamont’s involvement in the Bermuda station. How did you first become acquainted with the Bermuda station?

Kesner:

With the Bermuda station? Well the Bermuda station is a part of Lamont you know. And I became involved particularly because I did their purchasing. They had no way of getting their orders to New York and the supplies back to Bermuda. And they also had a ship and I used to get supplies for their vessel too. Clem [Clement L. J.] McCann was the skipper on the ship at that time. And the orders would come through their purchasing department to mine and then we would take care and get the material back as fast as possible. Now very often they would want something like explosives. Now explosives, you have to understand, would take months, but I mean months, to get to Bermuda. They would have to go through Camp Dix down in New Jersey. And when Camp Dix was having a ship that was going that way, they’d be glad to drop them off. But otherwise there was no other way. Flying? Well, that was difficult too. So very often my dear friend Carl Hartdegen [III] would walk into my office with a smirk on his face and say Alma would you take this package and take it home tonight? Put it in the closet and then when I tell you bring it back. All right, okay Carl. I know what’s in it but you know. Then when he wanted them back again, he would go into the department that took care of our air travels to find out when the next plane was going to Bermuda and then come back and say, “Would you like to take a package to Bermuda for me as a little vacation?”

Doel:

And this would be the same package that you’d been safekeeping for a while? How heavy would these packages be?

Kesner:

Probably about the size of this book here.

Doel:

Okay we’re looking at a standard school text.

Kesner:

A very small package. And I would find out later that this was needed in Bermuda because they were going to have an experiment go off and they needed detonators. They had plenty of the blasting caps and without the two together nothing would happen.

Doel:

Nothing would happen so you had to carry the detonators.

Kesner:

So I had to carry the detonators. They needed them in a hurry so very often I did that. But I knew what was in it. But luckily for me it looked like a box of candy or something in my personal suitcase and they never made me open it.

Doel:

You were never searched?

Kesner:

No. There too there was a party bunch out there too. But anyhow it was all good clean fun. When I see Arnold Finck I must ask him whatever happened to Leonard Spry? Because I was very fond of this man and his wife. They were “veddy” British. Oh and when I used to come to visit, they’d take me underneath their wing. I was young then too, don’t forget. And they would say to me, don’t go out on the Grace? It’s too stormy out on the water. And I would yes them to death and then walk outside and the first thing you’d know I’d be on the Grace? They talk me out on the Grace once. That was a sailboat. And I didn’t like it.

Doel:

This was the ships that were operating out of the Bermuda station?

Kesner:

The Bermuda station yes. And they worked very hard out there and at a disadvantage too of not getting their materials on time. I always felt bad about that. But I helped them as many times as I could by putting my life on the line you know. Imagine if I was every caught? Oh my gosh.

Doel:

I was thinking about that.

Kesner:

You ask Arnold Finck and he probably doesn’t know anything about this stuff you know.

Doel:

I’m sure Ewing knew about it though.

Kesner:

Oh yes, I’m sure.

Doel:

How important was the whole Bermuda operation to Lamont? How did that actually work in practice?

Kesner:

This is just hearsay. I understand that Dr. Ewing and Angelo Ludas invented this instrument that could detect a submarine approaching land. Now that was highly scientific and highly secretive at that time. And that’s where the explosives came in too. At that time I knew nothing about that. It wasn’t until recently I found out. I did a little research myself so I could get my memo to you with a little more continuity. There was something I wanted to recall and I found out what it was. But as you can see I didn’t pry into too many of their secrets. I only repeat what I’m told. But anyway I don’t know where it is but I’ve mentioned it in here some place. And that’s part of it. Gordon Hamilton and Carl Hartdegen, they were the directors and the assistant directors of the Observatory there.

Doel:

How well did you come to know Gordon Hamilton?

Kesner:

Hamilton, not very well. We would meet a meetings or parties. Or if I was in Bermuda we’d meet. But not as much as Carl Hartdegen. Carl Hartdegen was the work horse more or less.

Doel:

He was the Ewing in some ways of the Bermuda station?

Kesner:

That’s right.

Doel:

What sort of person was he?

Kesner:

Carl Hartdegen?

Doel:

Yeah.

Kesner:

Very loud, boisterous. I imagine he was a very good scientist or he wouldn’t be where he was. He was always talking about women. That’s another thing you have to mark down not to quote right? Completely dedicated to his work and he traveled a lot. He was transferred after he left Bermuda down to Cape Canaveral. I had no idea he had such a bad heart. But he did have a heart attack and he died down at Cape Canaveral. And I knew nothing about it. Nobody ever let me know and yet we worked together so closely for many years. And he had a lovely home in Bermuda. He was almost a Joe Worzel type if you know what I mean.

Doel:

I think I do.

Kesner:

Joe is the same way. They were about the same type of personality. You could hear them all over and yet they were very, very well informed and they were wonderful scientists. They brought the whole Lamont together.

Doel:

They were the social centers?

Kesner:

Now Doc wasn’t that social. Doc was more all business, all work, no play. And he was a renowned man really, terrific.

Doel:

How long would you stay down in Bermuda during those times when you went to ferry equipment?

Kesner:

Oh I was back the next day.

Doel:

That fast?

Kesner:

Oh yes, oh sure. But if I went down for vacation, In fact I’m going there again you know?

Doel:

No, I didn’t know that.

Kesner:

Yes. I don’t know when but it’s going to be soon before I get too old. There’s nobody there that I know anymore. It’s just that the island is just so beautiful I don’t like the other islands.

Doel:

One of the other issues that I wanted to talk about in the earlier period and I want to save some of the later developments toward the end of your time at Lamont from the second interview to catch up on. But I’m wondering how often if at all you would hear Ewing or others talk about fund raising. How to continue the contracts? Was that something that was ever?

Kesner:

It never came through me.

Doel:

Were you ever involved hearing conversations of people involved in that?

Kesner:

No, no. That was all done with; let me see; now I can’t remember his name. He no longer works there. Molly’s [Malone] office would handle that, where Molly worked. And I never sat in on any meetings containing fund raising at all. When the Palisade Geophysical started. I started that. That was completely a fund raising organization.

Doel:

When did you start that?

Kesner:

When did I start that? Oh God, it was the early 70s.

Doel:

And what does that involve?

Kesner:

That was with Frank [C.] Mongelli, Carl Hartdegen. It was an offset from the discontinuance of Navy SOFAR Station and Cape Canaveral.

Doel:

And was it a private concern at that point?

Kesner:

No — well not connected with Columbia. Yeah you might say it was a private, yes. But see there too I wasn’t in on the workings of it. I can’t tell you like I can with the purchasing and the accounts payable.

Doel:

How long were you involved with it?

Kesner:

Maybe about two months, that’s all. I set the whole system up. I went up to the office. Set them up and I also showed the purchasing. They wanted me to do purchasing which I did for a while but then I couldn’t do it any longer. And they got their own purchasing man. Incidentally, Frank Mongelli took me to lunch about a month ago, two months ago. He said I want to take you to lunch. I said what do you want me to do? There’s something behind this you know. And sure enough he wanted to know if I would come up to the Palisades office and work for purchasing. He said maybe one or two days a week. I said no I couldn’t. It would be unfair to begin with. I’m not here all the time. And I said I’ll be leaving soon to go to Florida. I’m gone for six months and it just wouldn’t be right. He didn’t even say think about it. But I think he took a look at me and said lady, you’re getting old too you know. And I think that sort of put the kibosh on it. But anyhow, he didn’t call again. And I know his man who does purchasing, he was ill. He has sort of like a Parkinson’s disease problem and it was sad to see go downhill. I don’t know what they’ve done really.

Doel:

You mentioned earlier that when the Vema came in there was a real flurry of activity in fulfilling the purchasing orders, getting everything ready quickly so that the ship could go back. I wonder what you remember particularly from any of those times when the Vema came in.

Kesner:

Those were hectic periods. Because Captain Kohler or Captain would bring you a list of everything they needed you know. And I’ll take the Vema right now to tell you how I would work that. They would need everything from soup to bolts and nuts. So when you were buying for that ship, you bought everything.

Doel:

And you were in charge of buying all that needed to be bought.

Kesner:

So in the early days we got messed up on a couple of things and Captain Kohler would come and say, Alma that meat you bought last year. Well it was all right. It’s terrible to be stuck in the middle of the ocean and you find out your steak is tough, so I said all right I’ll see what I can do better next time. So anyway when the ship came in the next time I made myself known with the Kansas Meatpacking Company, went down and inspected their plant, got samples of everything, and brought samples to Captain Kohier before I ordered. And he was pleased and from there on in we had no trouble; that is with the food and the produce and that sort of thing. But unfortunately Columbia could never understand why I couldn’t get three bids on all of this stuff and that was a battle royal. But anyhow after a while, they understood and I had no problem. Because it’s hard to get three bids for something like that. The time I found where I could buy canned shrimp from Texas, I think Captain Kohler was almost dancing the tune of heaven on earth. Because I brought him a sample of it. And all you had to do was open up the shrimp. Open up the can, fill the can with water, and you can serve it immediately after its cool. He had me buy as many as I could possibly get without sinking the ship believe me. It was wonderful. We had that. And he was happy about a lot of little things that way. But the most when the ship would be leaving Piermont and everybody’s down there saying goodbye and I’m amongst them. And he comes up and he’ll say I’m going to hold the ship another twenty minutes, we forgot something. I said like what? He says like ice cream and we can’t leave without ice cream. I had to get into my car and run up to Nyack fast, get forty gallons of ice cream. Run down to the pier again and then back my car up right up to the dock. They would take the ice cream off and then the ship would go boop boop on its way.

Doel:

That’s interesting.

Kesner:

More things like that happened though. And of course it was always a pleasure to go into his cabin when he’d invite us down. “Come on in Alma have a little snort.”

Doel:

This is on board the Vema?

Kesner:

On board, his own cabin. And we’d go in there and his wife would be there and we’d all be there and he’d go over to his little —

Doel:

Quick aside for the transcriber, we were having trouble getting this tape to continue running. You were saying before we got cut off two times that he already had chilled martinis waiting for you.

Kesner:

Waiting. And we always enjoyed going into his cabin and sitting down and enjoying that one martini together before he sailed off.

Doel:

It sounds like it was a tradition after a while.

Kesner:

It was. And then of course, the last time I was ever on the Vema was after the sale of the Vema. Columbia University sent out invitations for everyone to embark at 72nd Street and the Hudson River and the Vema was docked there and we went aboard and we had a nice luncheon. And we were going to go up the Hudson for the last time and leave it at Piermont before it was taken away. Well we’re all talking around. We’re all on the deck and we’re reminiscing good times and sad times and what not when I hear over the loudspeaker, “Alma Kesner come topside.” I said what did I do now? So I get upstairs. I mean I went up to the deck and Captain Kohler said to me, Alma we’re coming to the Hudson, to the George Washington Bridge, we’re going to let you handle it from there on up.

Doel:

Is that right?

Kesner:

I said, “You wouldn’t really trust me Captain Kohler would you?” I said, “Henry when I get underneath the George Washington Bridge I’m going to make a fast U-turn.” He said don’t you dare. So I did. I guided her. I was very thrilled about it and then after we passed under the George Washington Bridge I said, “It goes back to you sir.”

Doel:

That must be very memorable.

Kesner:

Yes, yes. That was the last time I saw the Vema. But I’m going to make it myself to make sure I get aboard when I get down to Miami someday.

Doel:

As you mentioned at lunch, the Vema is now serving for cruises.

Kesner:

Yes, for Barefoot Cruises out of Miami, Florida. And I understand that — I’ve seen it a few times on television, because she is used in a commercial and she looks beautiful.

Doel:

That’s interesting. When you had to get the supplies ready for the Vema, because Ewing wanted the ship to go out again very quickly, did you receive any of those requests by radio before the Vema docked or was it all simply handled when the ship came in?

Kesner:

Sometimes — most of the time it was handed to me when the ship returned to port. But usually it would remain here quite a while because we’d have to go to dry dock. There was a lot of work that had to be done before departure. Therefore I had ample time to get everything and if I didn’t, like I said, at the last minute there was always something which made life interesting.

Doel:

How did the character of Lamont change once people left again on the ship? Did you notice a definite change in operation?

Kesner:

Oh definitely. It was resumed to half panic now instead of full panic. And it was a quieter time and I don’t ever remember the two ships being in at the same time or it would be utter chaotic.

Doel:

The Vema and the Conrad.

Kesner:

And the Conrad yes. I did see the new ship. I wasn’t invited down to the ship at that time.

Doel:

Do you mean the Conrad or the one that’s replaced the Conrad?

Kesner:

No, the Maurice Ewing. I never did receive an invitation to come down, but Molly again told me about it. She said would you like to go down? And I said I’d love it. So we drove down and I was on the ship then. It was a very nice surprise.

Doel:

We’re — etc. — We’re resuming after just a very brief telephone interruption. I didn’t mean to cut you off on what you were talking about in general before. You had mentioned just a moment ago — let me hold off on that just for a moment — I want to come back later to the Vema and what you recall. One of the things that I’m wondering about in the early period. Were you in the loop in conversations at all about the advisory committees that met regarding Lamont? Was that something that Ewing or Adams would talk to you about — review committees?

Kesner:

No. Nothing at all.

Doel:

One of the other things that may or may not have come up. I’m just curious if you have any recollections about it. While maybe navy grants were absolutely critical for the support of Lamont. There were times when Lamont sought money from industry, from oil companies and others. Was that something you recall being discussed?

Kesner:

No. That’s one thing I never got into, and it was always with the — John [I.] Ewing You’ll get a lot on that from him.

Doel:

Were there others who were particularly interested in and involved in attempts to get private money?

Kesner:

Yes. Joe Worzel. He had a whole committee set up for the private patronage. They had an office in the main house, where we were all —

Doel:

When you were all together in the main house.

Kesner:

No, it was before that. When we were in the Butler Building already. They had an office in the main house. Some of the names I can’t even remember any more. They were all for the funds from private industry, and I didn’t get involved in that at all.

Doel:

I was wondering, too, thinking back particularly to the earlier period, did you ever talk much Lamont’s relationship to the other major oceanographic or ocean research centers?

Kesner:

Yes.

Doel:

Woods Hole?

Kesner:

Woods Hole and Scripps. A lot of our scientists would go to Woods Hole, and they would have meetings: John Ewing, for instance, and George Sutton, and Jack Oliver, when he was with us with the seismic group.

Doel:

Of course, just prior to the time you arrived at Lamont, Maurice Ewing used the Atlantis, the ship from Woods Hole, quite often.

Kesner:

Quite often, yes. Oh, definitely. Those are things you forget, you know.

Doel:

Right. I was wondering, in a general sense, what people thought of Lamont’s relationship to those other facilities — how they regarded themselves, in terms of the older laboratories.

Kesner:

Well, we were so new.

Doel:

I was just wondering if people seemed to talk about that or note that particularly.

Kesner:

It was always a good association, because they respected what we were trying to do and helped us as much as possible. Our association was very good — especially with Woods Hole. There was another place, in Florida that we had relations with. I think this was in the marine biology bit, though. I’m not too familiar with any of that — although I did work with Dr. Oswald Roels, and I spent time down at St. John, when he set up his office down there. They rented a plantation in St. John, and I flew down to St. John and stayed at the plantation for about a week, just setting up private industry credit orders — that they would accept without passing out a lot of cash. Which I was able to do. I put my life on the line. I said they’d get paid very shortly from Columbia, and when I said it, I had my fingers crossed, because they were notoriously slow in paying their bills sometimes. But we worked it out pretty well.

Doel:

And what kind of operation was it at St. John?

Kesner:

Down at St. John, Dr. Oswald Rouls, who is no longer with Lamont, had these lobsters and clams — trying to breed these out of the ocean. Out of the sea water. They had tanks, and they would have all the scientists work on these fish and breed them. There was their main work. I can’t remember what it was.

Doel:

That’s okay. Again that’s something you can add when you see the transcript. [Crosstalk]

Kesner:

Again, it’s something I don’t know much about. I can always go back to it.

Doel:

I was just curious what you recall of that?

Kesner:

They had a lovely setup. A lot of scientists from Lamont came down and worked there with Oswald Roels. He evidently had discontinued the same method of — I forget what they called it; now they had a name for it. I can’t remember. When I was working with it, I was very familiar with it, but now I can’t — I’m sorry.

Doel:

You’ll remember it the moment we turn off the tape recorder, as so often happens. [Laughs]

Kesner:

Like before. Yes.

Doel:

When you say the “others” went down, who from Lamont had the closest association?

Kesner:

Anybody from marine biology. There was Lionel Wilford and some of the men who went with him. I can’t remember now. I’m really sorry. It will probably all come back to me, but I didn’t know you were going into that depth of it, see. [Laughter]

Doel:

That’s fine. I don’t mean to be pressing you. That’s not something we can get to. [Crosstalk] Let me ask you what you had raised a moment ago, and I didn’t mean to cut you off. Clearly, one of the tragic events from the Vema was the death of the crewman. I believe it was the Vema 3 expedition. It was not long before you came to Lamont — around 1954. I think that’s the same incident.

Kesner:

It’s the same October. I was here. I was working for Lamont at the time.

Doel:

There was someone who was killed by a dynamite explosion or something. Very, very early on. Was that the one that you meant?

Kesner:

Yes, that’s the one.

Doel:

Not the one where the crewman was washed overboard.

Kesner:

No. Dr. Ewing and the crewman were washed over.

Doel:

Right. That was the 1954 incident. [Crosstalk]

Kesner:

That was 1954. This was after that. He was aboard and they were throwing dynamite overboard. John Hennion.

Doel:

This is for the seismic work — the traditional method —

Kesner:

That’s right. In doing so — it had to be done with precision. Somebody counts and then a bomb. Somebody counts and then a bomb. Somehow it miscalculated, and when the bomb went off, it was here.

Doel:

You’re pointing to your stomach.

Kesner:

Yes. It was terrible. In fact, somebody from Lamont was visiting me that day, when we got the word about this. I can’t remember this man’s name, either, which I’m very sorry about, because I spent time with his wife when it happened. It was just unfortunate that they were so far away nothing could be brought back to New York. He was buried at sea. And yet I do know his name, like my own. (John Hennion)

Doel:

I’ve seen it myself, but I don’t recall it right now. We’ll make sure —

Kesner:

He was a wonderful, wonderful person.

Doel:

How long had you known him?

Kesner:

Oh, just a short time. But he was always so pleasant and always so cheerful. I can’t describe him. He never should have died that way. And Dr. Ewing was beside himself. Oh! As you can imagine.

Doel:

Was Ewing on that particular voyage?

Kesner:

No. I’ll remember his name. I’m sorry I can’t remember it now. That’s the thing about getting old.

Doel:

It happens to those of us who are much younger, too. As I say I wanted to cover particularly the 1970’s, the last decade that you were at Lamont.

Kesner:

Seventies to eighties?

Doel:

Seventies and the very early eighties and your continuing involvement after your initial retirement.

Kesner:

The hard years at Lamont were when Doc and Joe and the rest went to Texas.

Doel:

1972 and thereafter.

Kesner:

That was the most difficult time. There was so much heartache and so much unbelief that this could happen to us that it was very difficult for everybody. They asked me if I would go down to Texas. I was very flattered to think they would want me, but — I spent quite a number of days down there, too, when they went down. Then of course when the death of Dr. Ewing came, it hit Lamont like a bombshell. It was just awful. I also went back with them for the services down in Texas. I was very pleased that they would even invite me, and it was all very sad. Nothing was ever the same at Lamont after that. You know, Manik [Talwani] was not the best director. He was, in fact, invited to leave, and then we started with a series of interim directors. But everybody seemed to forget what went on before — how we had been all working together, especially money-wise. Nothing was raised after that.

Doel:

In terms of fund-raising.

Kesner:

The fund-raising. Nothing of the fund-raising was even done — to a great extent. But I’ll tell you who could tell you more of that would be Arnold Finck. See, Arnold Finck never bothered too much with my end of the operation. He just would come in and say, “Hi. How ya doin’?” and walk out.

Doel:

Maybe about the extent of it.

Kesner:

Yes, that’s about the extent of it. It was just — as I say, I’m just sorry now, after thinking about what I could accomplish and what I have accomplished for them, that I couldn’t accomplish more, had I visited Columbia more — got on more of a relationship with them, instead of fighting my battles up here all the time. You see.

Doel:

Would there have actually been time for you to do that —

Kesner:

No.

Doel:

— given the number of hats that you wore?

Kesner:

I couldn’t. They kept me so busy, with all these other jobs. I wasn’t too happy about the cafeteria — I’ll tell you that — because that was time consuming. I was happy, as far as accomplishing as much as I did in the short period I was there. Well, I was there almost 25 years. Not quite. They gave me a silver dish anyway. I never would have left when I did. Never. I left on the spur of the moment. I don’t want that in at all. Brought somebody in that I could never work with. Never.

Doel:

You don’t mean Tom?

Kesner:

No, no. No, that’s different. He was director. But Arnold Finck left before I did, you know. He brought somebody in I could never work with. Never. And I felt as though I could have done lots more with Lamont. And if I could have just achieved my goal — which I never just did — that was to have the privilege of writing up our own purchase orders from my office. That’s what I’d like to see.

Doel:

You’d been leaning towards that for — [Crosstalk]

Kesner:

And I was promised it whole-heartedly — that it was going to happen.

Doel:

Promised by who?

Kesner:

By Columbia. I’m trying to think of the man who ran the purchasing department down at Columbia for so many years. [Richard N.] Jenkins?

Doel:

How long had you known Manik Talwani before he became director?

Kesner:

I used to do typing for him, when I first came.

Doel:

When he was still a graduate student.

Kesner:

When he was still a graduate student. 1956. He used to bring his papers in to me, and I used to type them up for him all the time. And scientific phrases came to me very easily. I never heard of some of the phrases or some of the terminology before. The seismographs and the seismology — if that little drum started to go off the needle, we’d call Jack Oliver and he’d be down, you know — tell us where the earthquake was. And things like that. I was much better a few years back, but now I’m forgetting it all again. But I had no problem at all doing their typing. As bad as their handwriting was sometimes, I made it out. [Laughs] So as I said before, they were the happiest days of my life. I loved every minute of it.

Doel:

Were there discussions that he might replace Doc Ewing.

Kesner:

There was, but I wasn’t involved with it. But I know there was an awful lot of discussion, and sometimes I think it was done for — I don’t know what reason. I know Bill Donn was very upset about it.

Doel:

About Talwani’s appointment?

Kesner:

Yes. And there were a lot of people who would have loved it. But that’s as far as I can say. And there was an awful day that day, when we were all sitting in that seminar room, waiting for the announcement. And then it came. You’d think you were at a wake. Everybody was upset.

Doel:

That’s the day that Doc Ewing made the announcement that he was going to go to Texas. Had you known at all what was coming?

Kesner:

No. I knew something was coming up, but I didn’t know just what it was. As I say, it was a bad day for all of us.

Doel:

In covering this I suspect we should backtrack a minute and talk about the Doherty gift, because that was really a factor that later influenced Ewing’s decision whether to stay at Lamont or go to Texas. Was that something that you had direct awareness of?

Kesner:

No, I didn’t.

Doel:

I wonder if you recall any discussions concerning the donation.

Kesner:

Never, really. No. Not a bit. If there was any discussion, I certainly don’t remember it.

Doel:

Do you recall the discussions at that time with Ewing particularly — or others at Lamont — about the relations with Columbia, and problems? You mentioned at lunch that —

Kesner:

Yes.

Doel:

— things were building up. The tensions.

Kesner:

I know Doc did it. Doctor Ewing was very disturbed about the way Columbia was handling our affairs — number one. He would threaten to leave many times. You know. But the culmination of it I don’t know. No one ever discussed it with me. Our friendship didn’t go that far — that they would tell me something I shouldn’t know. You see. And I never asked questions. Never! Of anybody. All my friends there — I would never come out and say, “What are you doing about this or that?” That’s why they liked me — because I never would question anybody about the efforts, or whatever was going on that I shouldn’t know.

Doel:

I was wondering if your impression that the problems with Columbia were somewhat specifically centered or a broad range of problems.

Kesner:

I think there was a broad range of problems — not only financial. I know Doc would like to do things his way, and he was not allowed to do them. He just didn’t go with them at all.

Doel:

Let’s end right now with one general question. There are plenty of things that we should back to during the next interview. Given Ewing’s strong personality, was personality a factor in the selection of other individuals who came and became part of Lamont? Did certain kinds of people simply not fit in? It would take a strong personality to succeed at Lamont, or was Lamont accommodating to a wide range of talents? [Crosstalk]

Kesner:

Well now, according to what you mean about “succeed.” I think Doctor Ewing was fair enough that you would succeed on your own merits It was that that brought you to Lamont. If you could prove to him that you knew what you were doing, that was all he required. And Peter Ward was [laughs] the name of that man that went to see Doe Ewing. Peter was so chagrinned that when we left Doe’s office, I could hear Peter walking behind me. All of a sudden, his steps came faster and faster until he caught up with me. And he apologized to me! He said, “Alma, I had no idea that rules and regulations were so prominent. I came from Scripps, and they don’t do things like that at Scripps.” I said, “They allowed you to buy whatever you wanted?” He says, “Yeah, more or less. Up to a couple hundred dollars.” I said, “Well, does Scripps have the same kind of financial background that we have — that we have to account for every nickel? Or every purchase I make? You know, if you could sit in at my desk and listen to the auditors when they come in and question everything I buy — why I bought it; why I put it here and there — I think you’d have a different story.” So he said to me, “Well, it won’t happen again.” [Laughter]

Doel:

And as you say, it didn’t.

Kesner:

It didn’t. No.

Doel:

Let me thank you very much for this first session, and this should go on the tape — not make the tape available or the transcript without your express permission.

Kesner:

Yes.

Doel:

That will come in two forms that you will be receiving.