Michael Stinson

Daigle:

My name is Gilles Daigle. Today’s date is December 5, 2018, and we are on the campus of the National Research Council in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. The time is 12:45 p.m. and I’m about to interview Michael Stinson for the Acoustical Society of America Technical Committees on Noise, Physical Acoustics, and P and P. So Mike, what is your present address?

Stinson:

I live just outside of Ottawa, Canada. My address is [redacted].

Daigle:

What is your present telephone number?

Stinson:

[redacted]

Daigle:

Who is your present employer?

Stinson:

Well, I am self-employed. I work with Gilles Daigle. We have a small R&D consulting company called MG Acoustics, and we take on projects that seem interesting, have some sort of research component. That’s sort of a part-time occupation right now.

Daigle:

That means you would be semi-retired?

Stinson:

I am semi-retired.

Daigle:

Okay. And your job title at MG Acoustics?

Stinson:

Well, principal of the company—there are two of us—but also for banking purposes and registration, I am the chief operations officer.

Daigle:

Okay, and how long have you been with MG Acoustics?

Stinson:

We started in fall 2009, so that will be nine years.

Daigle:

And generally, what do you do there?

Stinson:

We have a variety of different projects that come our way — some because of our reputation; some are carryovers from when we were employed at the National Research Council. It’s quite a variety, and we just take on different projects. We work for a couple weeks, a couple days, or a couple months on them, depending on the scale of the project.

Daigle:

Do you do some parts of the work and Gilles does the other part or do you split it evenly?

Stinson:

We have sort of a rough separation. Gilles will tend to do more of the experimental side of things; I’ll do more of the theoretical. There’s a lot of programming involved, and we both do that.

Daigle:

Okay. Who writes the proposals and writes the reports?

Stinson:

We do those together.

Daigle:

All right. Well, that brings us to the Acoustical Society of America and related questions. What year did you join the ASA?

Stinson:

My first year was 1979, and I guess I would be 29 years old at that time.

Daigle:

What was your profession?

Stinson:

I was a physicist. My training, I had a PhD in physics, but I started working in physiological acoustics at that time. It seemed an interesting fit. There were not a lot of physicists working there, but also, I could see that I could apply some of the wave theory that I already knew and model ear canals. That was sort of an interesting start.

Daigle:

So, the areas of acoustics you were interested in would have been P and P at that time?

Stinson:

Well, P and P because that’s what I was working on, but I also had a lot of interest in physical acoustics being a physicist, and so I went to as many of those sessions as I could, and musical acoustics also was of interest. I enjoy music, and seeing how it was produced and some of the theory behind it was interesting. I think that’s one of the benefits of the ASA. It’s broad and it has all sorts of disciplines and you can learn a lot from the other fields. So I tried to get to as many different areas as I could.

Daigle:

What were your reasons for joining the ASA?

Stinson:

Oh, that was because I had started work with the National Research Council, the Acoustics Section at the time, and the members of that section were very prominent in the ASA. Past president was Edgar Shaw. A president soon to be was Tony Embleton. They were all members of ASA, very active, and so it was just expected that I would join ASA. But also for a career in acoustics, that was the way to go.

Daigle:

And I wonder if we would have been fired if we didn't join ASA! [Laughing] Was there anyone in particular who encouraged you to join the ASA?

Stinson:

Yeah. That would be Edgar Shaw and Tony Embleton. They were the first two people I met there. When I was being interviewed for the job, they explained the whole thing and then they said, “Well, of course you would be a member of ASA.” It was just expected, and so yes, I became a member.

Daigle:

And you just said both of those people have been past presidents of the society, so they’d probably be pretty influential in your decision, right?

Stinson:

Yes. [Chuckles] Well, I wasn’t about to not join, and it was a good idea. You tend to join societies that are appropriate, and I expected to do work in acoustics and the Acoustical Society of America was the preeminent society in the world. So it was only logical to join.

Daigle:

What ASA committees were or are you a member of?

Stinson:

I started with the P and P. That’s Physiological and Psychological Acoustics. Later I was a member of the Physical Acoustics Technical Committee, and then Noise, of which I became the chair at some point. But also I was a member of the Architectural Acoustics at one time.

Daigle:

Any other administrative committees or—?

Stinson:

Yes, several committees. There’s the Medals and Awards. I did a term on that. I served on the Panel on Public Policy, and there were some other ad hoc committees which I have forgotten now which I also served on.

Daigle:

Okay. Did you have any positions within the ASA?

Stinson:

I did indeed. The Noise Technical Committee, I was elected to chair that for a three-year term. Shortly after that, I became a member of the Executive Council for three years, and after that I was vice president and after that the president. In addition, I was chair of the joint ASA-ICA meeting that was held in Montréal in 2013. Also Technical Program Chair for the ASA meeting that was held in Ottawa. I think that was 1993.

Daigle:

Yes. Were you not associate editor at some point for the journal?

Stinson:

I was, and I didn't mention that. I was also the associate editor for the JASA Electronic Letters, the JASA EL, for several years.

Daigle:

Okay. Anything else that comes to mind?

Stinson:

Nothing else comes to mind.

Daigle:

All right. Is there any particular ASA meeting or meetings that stand out as being something special, humorous, different?

Stinson:

Yeah, several for different reasons. Cambridge in 1979—that was my first meeting, so that stood out. I was introduced to the president, Henning von Gierke, at the time and that was kind of neat in that here’s this guy who is a world leader, he’s president and I get to chat with him. So, I guess that was an indication of the society, that you were allowed to talk to the gods.

Daigle:

Yeah. There’s another aspect, too. I attended the Cambridge meeting, too. It was also my first meeting, and I remember earlier in the meeting, I think it was the president’s reception, we got to serve behind the bar, didn't we?

Stinson:

We did. Well, I’m not sure that meeting, but—

Daigle:

Not that meeting, but an earlier meeting.

Stinson:

But certainly for several other meetings. I think about three or four or five meetings we were working at the president’s reception as bartenders.

Daigle:

Yeah, and so as you say, I mean here you are in the president’s reception where all the past presidents and so on… and we’re serving the drinks!

Stinson:

They don't do that anymore.

Daigle:

I know. That’s stupid.

Stinson:

Now it’s all done by professionals. You wouldn't be allowed.

Daigle:

Probably a labor thing. Yeah. So, any other meeting besides the Cambridge meeting.

Stinson:

Yeah. The San Antonio meeting in 2009 I received a Silver Medal in noise and so that one stands out. That was a special event for me. It’s always nice to be recognized, even… Sometimes you don't think you deserve it, but…

Daigle:

No, you deserve it.

Stinson:

Also, when I was president there were two joint meetings. There was one in Honolulu that was joint with the Japanese Acoustical Society, and then following that there was the Boston meeting which was joint with the European Acoustical Association. So, I think I have the distinction of being the only ASA president that had two international meetings during their term.

Daigle:

I think that’s right. I had the Paris meeting, but my other meeting was in New Orleans. That’s not a… I think you're right there. Are there any ASA members that you met that have had specially influence your future?

Stinson:

I think early on one of the people that was really quite influential was Shyam Khanna. He was a researcher at Columbia University in New York. I had just given a talk on how I was modeling how sound travels along the ear canal, and right after my talk he pulled me out of the session and said, “We’ve got to work together.” That was really neat that someone actually recognized my work. It turned out it was a great opportunity because I started meeting other people from other countries. It was an international consortium that he was putting together, and I was looking at the input into the acoustical system. He had done work on the cat hearing and he was modeling how eardrums vibrate and he had other people looking at other parts of it. So it was a great interaction. He was just a great guy. When I went down to New York to work with him at times, I would stay in his house and it was just…

Daigle:

Where was he associated with, which university?

Stinson:

He was Columbia University.

Daigle:

He was Columbia. So you went several times to work in New York.

Stinson:

Yeah. He’d have a measurement or some sort of experiment that he had all set up. I’d go down and be there for three or four days while the experiment was done, look at the data, get involved with the analysis.

Daigle:

And how long did you work with Shyam Khanna?

Stinson:

Oh, probably for five or ten years… ten years, I think. He had what he called ITER, International Team of Ear Researchers. There was a group from around the world—Belgium, Norway… So, it was a good time. It was good experiencing a team effort.

Daigle:

Yeah. It sounds very stimulating. Is there anything you care to say about the ASA—past, present, future?

Stinson:

Yeah. It’s an interesting society, and I think it goes back to, what, 1929? I think it’s done a lot of good stuff all over the time, so I’d say it’s got really a great past. I can see that there were some mistakes made. There are some things like the spinoff of some groups of acousticians into other organizations such as INCE or AES. Maybe we could have kept those people within our fold, but then we would be in a much bigger society which might not make it as friendly. The present—people are looking very carefully at how we can maintain our position internationally. It’s a highly regarded acoustical society, and I think we want to maintain that. Acoustics worldwide I think is catching up. There’s a lot of good, cutting-edge research that’s being done in Japan, Korea, and in Europe, and for the ASA to think they’re the only ones or the most… the key researchers, I think they’ve kind of lost that. There’s still… There’s work done everywhere, so they have to find their place, but they ought to continue to maintain ties. So, they’re doing that. That’s one of the things looking to the future. We’ve had strategic meetings. People bring together people from a cross-section of the society, saying, “What are we doing right? What are we doing wrong? What should we do?” There’s another one that’s coming up in the next year, and all this is looking to the future. So, I think there is a lot of positive to be taken from that.

Daigle:

And the future? You think the…

Stinson:

I think they’re looking to the future, and there are some issues that have to be resolved. Finances is one that… right now the ASA is in real good shape. They’ve got all sorts of money, but they may have too much money, so they’ve got to be careful about that. But then salaries are going up. We’ve got additional staff being put on all the time. Revenue is not going up; revenue has been stagnant— you know, from the journal, revenue from other sources. So, there’s going to be a bit of a crunch coming up, and that will have to be dealt with carefully. Mechanisms are being put in place to look at this and to monitor it. There’s a new committee that was set up to study just this long-term planning, looking ahead, and so I think that’s all good. So, the future bodes well.

Daigle:

Besides the ASA, what other professional organizations do you belong to?

Stinson:

I belong to the Institute of Noise Control Engineering (INCE), Canadian Acoustical Association, and the ICA (International Commission for Acoustics).

Daigle:

Have you provided an oral history interview for any other organization?

Stinson:

No, I have not.

Daigle:

That brings us to your past history, the early years and pre-college years. Now, when and where were you born?

Stinson:

I was born in Vancouver, British Columbia on the west coast of Canada. That was August 9, 1949.

Daigle:

All right. Before entering college, where were some of the places you lived?

Stinson:

I didn't move far from my birthplace. So, from Vancouver, when I was just like four years old, we moved out a little farther to Burnaby, which is just adjacent to Vancouver, and then when I was in grade five, I moved up to Surrey, which is probably half an hour drive from downtown Vancouver.

Daigle:

What were your parents’ occupations?

Stinson:

My father was an electrician. He worked for a company that installed the electrical systems into Hudson Bay kind of warehouses and things, so it was industrial wiring. My mother, she was a homemaker.

Daigle:

How would you describe yourself during those early years?

Stinson:

Oh, probably generally happy. I had a good home life. My parents were loving. I had two brothers and a sister and we all sort of got along.

Daigle:

Which can be rare sometimes.

Stinson:

Yeah. Well, we had our moments. But we still talk to each other, so it’s a good sign that things have lasted. In those years, what I really liked doing was just getting out with the local kids and we’d have pick-up games of football or baseball. School, well, I did good in school. School came real easy. That was, I didn't have to worry about it, but I didn't really enjoy it as much as…

Daigle:

When you were—

Stinson:

I was more outside. I was more doing sports.

Daigle:

So, when you were in school or as a youngster, did you know what you wanted to be when you grew up?

Stinson:

Not really, no. I think I followed the path of least resistance. You know, I didn't want to go out and get a real job, so I went to school and carried on at university and just found things, if I didn't like that, so this was left by process of elimination and I ended up where I was.

Daigle:

All right. So, before college, what were your hobbies, special interests? Any heroes?

Stinson:

Oh, I didn't really have heroes, but oh, I liked doing things like chess. I had a friend who liked playing chess. I was sort of the smart kid in the class; he was the dumb kid, and he was really good in chess for some reason. So, we had some good matches. Sports was a big thing. I loved sports and I loved being outside playing and I liked… When we first got a TV, the New York Yankees were on winning the World Series, so that became my favorite team for a while just because they were the first things that I really saw. Before that, I didn't know too much about professional sports. I liked reading, but mostly just science fiction. I like to think about the future and things that could be, not things that are or were, but things that could be, and science fiction really stimulated my imagination. That probably is why I ended up in science, because I had that interest in what could be.

Daigle:

All right. What subjects, events, activities did you enjoy most in high school?

Stinson:

Well, subjects, math was probably number one. I think back in grade five or six we started algebra. That was just really neat that you could solve these things, which, most kids around me, they didn't like it. But I don't know. I got about ten chapters ahead of everyone just doing problems just because it was fun, and that’s carried through. I’ve always liked mathematics. But then you can apply math to science. Actually, I applied it when I was just tossing a baseball, just wondering, “Well, how does that go?” and so was sort of calculating trajectories and things, and things around the house, I would actually find I could do calculations and understand the real world in terms of the mathematics.

Daigle:

This was when you were in high school?

Stinson:

This was junior high school, which is like grades eight and nine, and then high school.

Daigle:

Looking back, was there any person or persons during that timeframe that had a strong influence on you and your future?

Stinson:

Well, there’s probably lots of people. Probably—

Daigle:

This is high school.

Stinson:

Yeah, this is high school. The ones that come to mind probably — this may sound like a pat answer — were my parents. I think what I got from them was a work ethic. My father, he was like in a 9 to 5 trade, but he would still bring blueprints home at night if he had something that he thought he had to figure out. He would make sure he did the job properly, and even outside. We had property. We had five acres when I was up in Surrey, outside Vancouver. There’s work to be done, and I remember once we had a ditch that we had to dig. So, I was out helping him and after half an hour of this, “Okay, I’m tired. Let’s go in.” “Oh no, we’ve got to finish the job.” I think I actually went in and he finished the job and I thought, “Wow.” So, I kind of learned you don't just leave a job half-done. And my mother, too. she could have been very successful if she had been born fifty years later, but she was at a time where a woman did not go into careers. I know she was very bright. She skipped a couple grades when she was in school. She loved the sciences, but there really wasn’t a career path for her. But still she was hard-working and around the yard, she did a lot of gardening and… you know, an impressive amount of work. So anyway, this work ethic, I think I absorbed a lot of that.

Daigle:

All right. Well, that brings us now to your college years. We’ll start with the undergraduate level. Where did you first go to college and what was your major?

Stinson:

The first university was Simon Fraser University. That’s outside Vancouver. It’s in Burnaby. It was a new university. It was built on top of a hill and got all sorts of architectural awards because it was very beautiful and it’s a very beautiful location. I started in a science program. We didn't have to specify a major for the first couple years, so I was simply in science.

Daigle:

When did you have to choose a major?

Stinson:

About the second or third year.

Daigle:

And what made you choose that major? What was your major, first of all?

Stinson:

Well, I settled on physics. That’s because I wasn’t sure if physics or chemistry or math. I was sort of interested in all of those, but then I just enjoyed the physics the most. And chemistry, I had a couple courses where I just found the material very dry and it wasn’t too logical, it seemed. The structures were not that great, so perhaps because of that I steered more towards the physics. The reason I chose that college…

Daigle:

Well, you said it was a pretty location.

Stinson:

There was more than that. It was close to home. I could commute. We didn't have a lot of money, so there I could stay at home and just drive to university every day.

Daigle:

What did you drive?

Stinson:

My first car was a Mercedes Benz.

Daigle:

Wow!

Stinson:

My father bought a used one. I think it was a 1961 220D. It had a gas engine.

Daigle:

Well, Stinson turns up at Simon Fraser University in a Mercedes Benz! What did the other students think about that?

Stinson:

Well, they didn't ever say anything.

Daigle:

They didn't dare say anything! [Chuckles] As an undergraduate, did you ever change college or major?

Stinson:

I didn't change. I stayed in the same college.

Daigle:

As an undergraduate, yeah.

Stinson:

As an undergraduate. I focused more on the math and physics and eventually settled on the physics thing, so I didn't actually change it. It was just sort of…

Daigle:

You stayed in physics.

Stinson:

…I got steered into the physics.

Daigle:

Okay. As an undergraduate, did you belong to any special clubs or participate in any special school activities?

Stinson:

I didn't belong to any clubs, but I was a gym rat. I was often in the gym just shooting hoops with other guys who were around.

Daigle:

Enlighten me about what shooting hoops actually is.

Stinson:

You have a basketball court and you get basketballs and you…

Daigle:

Oh, so it’s basketball.

Stinson:

It’s basketball.

Daigle:

Okay. Shooting hoops, eh? Okay.

Stinson:

Yeah. So there would be pick-up games. There also was a league, like a lunchtime league, for teams at the university, and I had a team which I played on for several years. That was good.

Daigle:

And you continued an interest in basketball more or less throughout your life.

Stinson:

For quite a few years, yeah. I played after university. It was all done. Even while I was working I played on men’s leagues, so at least once a week I’d get together. They had men’s leagues at different levels. I wasn’t high level, but sort of medium level.

Daigle:

When did you stop playing basketball?

Stinson:

When I turned 50. My body couldn't take it anymore. My height, I’m not real tall, so I can't be just the center who just gets passes. I was more of a workhorse. I’m tall enough that I’ve got to get in there and bang other people and get rebounds, so you get beat up pretty bad.

Daigle:

[Laughs] I thought it was a non-touch sport.

Stinson:

It’s very much a contact, but non-contact, sport.

Daigle:

[Laughing] Right. Tell us about your undergraduate college days. Was there any particular person, teacher, professor, or someone special that had a strong influence on you and your future?

Stinson:

Yeah, there was one person, my first professor in physics. His name was Leigh Hunt Palmer, and he just gave great lectures. He was very interesting and he would also make a lot of time afterwards, you know, if anyone had questions and wanted to chat. He was open, and he would actually take some students and he would, you know… It was almost a club, but it wasn’t formalized in any way. You just had a lot of involvement. He got me to take the Canadian Association of Physicists exams. They have exams for undergraduates, and that was… He got me into doing things which I probably wouldn't have done otherwise. And what else? He did something else, yeah. Yeah, I guess because he was my first one and he was just so involved. I think that’s largely why I headed into the physics part.

Daigle:

During that period of your life, who was your inspirational model, or did you have an inspirational model?

Stinson:

I didn't have an inspirational model, no. There were lots of people who I admired. I guess I got… My imagination was stimulated by things like the “Star Trek” TV series that came out about then, and that was “here’s the future.” Again, it followed up on my reading of science fiction, and so that was sort of interesting—perhaps inspirational in a way. It did get me excited about the future and what might happen.

Daigle:

Yeah. I can understand that. I had a similar experience. That is an inspiration, I guess. Did you ever participate in a rally, protest, or cause?

Stinson:

I came close to participating.

Daigle:

What was the issue?

Stinson:

Simon Fraser was a new university, and there was a time when there was a lot of rebelling in universities. The art students in particular took over the library and the administration building at our university. This was all interesting and exciting stuff, but I wasn’t involved. But I was there watching. All the science students kind of watched. “Oh, this is interesting.” Then after probably an hour of this, okay, “Well, that’s enough speeches.” We would go back to our labs and get back to the real work. So that was my closest. There was a lot of unrest at the university at the time.

Daigle:

What was the issue?

Stinson:

What it boils down to—they just wanted, I don't know, to be heard. There was nothing… I guess they wanted a little more say in some of the agendas. You know, it’s just sort of when you're a rebellious teenager, it carries on to the university and I think that was it. It was just a time that… It was just all over North America. There was all sorts of activity. They had their reasons.

Daigle:

Okay. Looking back, would you go to the same college, take the same major if you could start all over again? If no, what college would you attend and what major would you take?

Stinson:

Oh, I wouldn't change anything. No. I’m happy with the way my life has worked out and I wouldn't want— If I change it, it might be better, but it could be worse.

Daigle:

And these are experiments we can't repeat, right? [Laughs]

Stinson:

Unfortunately.

Daigle:

Well, that brings us to the graduate level, and I’ll start with the master’s degree. Did you go to a graduate training for a master’s degree?

Stinson:

Yeah. I carried on at Simon Fraser University in physics. So, I again commuted from my home and…

Daigle:

What led you to choose to stay at Simon Fraser?

Stinson:

Well, finances still. I still didn't have a lot of money available. I could have gone to UBC, the University of British Columbia, which is bigger, but it was too long to commute. Then I’d have to stay in residence and then there’s the cost associated with that. So, it seemed better financially just to stay where I was. I enjoyed the university, and I knew a lot of the people there by that time.

Daigle:

How were you supported?

Stinson:

Well, as soon as I started graduate, I started getting some scholarships. The British Columbia government had scholarships and I got those, and there were a couple other smaller scholarships that I applied for and I got.

Daigle:

What did you work on? What was your master’s thesis on?

Stinson:

Well, this was a solid state physics department, really. That was their focus, so I worked on looking at electronic surface states in cadmium sulfide, which has nothing to do with acoustics. But it essentially involved getting very thin layers of this semiconductor, cadmium sulfide, of different thicknesses. You measure the electrical resistance of those, so then you’ve got resistance as a function of thickness. By looking at slopes and doing some mathematical analysis, I could get out where the electronic surface states were. So, like a solid material, it’s got different energy bands where electrons can reside, but at the surface of the material, those bands shift either up or down. So by looking— What I was doing, you could work out how much that shift was of those surface states.

Daigle:

Is there an application for this?

Stinson:

Not that I knew of at the time. It was just a project to work on. What would the applications be? Well, probably if you're sort of worrying about semiconductor performance, that could be utilized to control different states and probably change the electronic properties, so it could be useful in different electronic devices. It could also be an indication where something could go wrong. If you’ve got oxidation going on at the surface, that could affect it, and so when measuring this, you’d be able to infer that there could be a problem.

Daigle:

Oh, yeah. Right. Who at the school had the greatest influence on your future?

Stinson:

Well, that was probably my supervisor for my research, but almost indirectly. This is Rudi Haering. When I joined, he was quite big in the CAP, the Canadian Association of Physicists. He seemed like a good guy. He was easy to talk to and so I thought, “This is great.” But shortly after I joined, he transferred to a different university. He went across town to University of British Columbia, and I was then, for most of my research, left on my own. You know, he’d drop by occasionally, but I was free to make decisions and try different things as I saw fit. That was great. It didn't bother me. I enjoyed it. It gave me a chance to be independent and actually make my own decisions and “Oops, that didn't work,” and “Here’s something that did work.”

Daigle:

By definition, that’s what a Ph.D. should be.

Stinson:

Well, this is still a master’s, so…

Daigle:

Oh, just a master’s?

Stinson:

This is master’s.

Daigle:

Oh, yeah. Sorry.

Stinson:

So, I think I got that independence a little early.

Daigle:

Yeah. So, you got practice for your Ph.D., then, at the master’s level by being left alone.

Stinson:

In a way, yes, I did.

Daigle:

Yeah, in a way. All right, so let’s go on to the doctorate, then. Did you continue on for a doctorate? If so, where?

Stinson:

Well, I did, but not immediately. I had pushed through my bachelor’s degree and master’s degree quite fast and I kind of got burned out and I wanted a break. Actually, I wasn’t sure how long the break was going to be, and it turned out to be about two years. So, I got a job. I worked in a factory for this… I was working on a grinder for the sawmill industry. You’ve got 12-foot circular saws that cut up wood. They each have individual teeth, and I was grinding those teeth individually, 1,200 a day.

Daigle:

[Laughs] That’s quite a change.

Stinson:

It was quite a change. I had no hair on my arms because of all the sparks coming off the grinder.

Daigle:

Well, that certainly gave the brain a rest.

Stinson:

It did in a way, but actually I would spend times— I’d go off on a break or I’d go back to what I’d been working on in my master’s trying to modify some of the theory. You know, I still loved the science. It was still there. And about that time I got married and traveled with my wife. We spent about a year traveling, went to Europe, down through the States. Then at that time I was saying, “I’ve got to get back to this,” and I sort of decided what universities. I wanted to stay in Canada. I narrowed it down to a bunch and contacted them, and the one that seemed the best fit for me was Queen’s University in Kingston. So that’s where I went.

Daigle:

Okay. Why did it seem a good fit?

Stinson:

They seemed more personal. The University of Toronto, they never, ever responded to my letters. We didn't have email then, we had letters, and they never responded, so okay. Well, that’s kind of a cold, heartless… At least that’s the way I interpreted it. It just seemed like, okay, if they don't have time to get back to me… Queen’s, I got a personal note from the graduate studies coordinator and then looked at the research they were doing and it was a lot of interesting stuff. So, it just seemed good, and Kingston is a nice town. It’s not a big city, but it’s not a town.

Daigle:

Where is it again?

Stinson:

Kingston, Ontario.

Daigle:

Yeah, but where is Kingston?

Stinson:

It’s down on Lake Ontario.

Daigle:

It’s just east of Toronto, I recall.

Stinson:

No, it’s on the other end of the lake. There’s Lake Ontario. Toronto is on one side. Where the lake becomes the St. Lawrence River, that’s where Kingston resides.

Daigle:

But Kingston is east of Toronto.

Stinson:

It is east of Toronto.

Daigle:

Somewhere between Montréal and Toronto.

Stinson:

It’s about a three-hour drive east.

Daigle:

How were you supported?

Stinson:

Scholarships. There was an NSERC scholarship that I got. I had that as well during my master’s degree. So, I got the NSERC scholarships, but there were also other scholarships with the university. I had no problem getting scholarships.

Daigle:

What’s NSERC?

Stinson:

National… You should know this. National Science and…

Daigle:

National Research and Engineering Research Council.

Stinson:

Something like that, yes.

Daigle:

National Research and Engineering Research Council.

Stinson:

I just called them NSERC. So, thank you. [ed., Natural Sciences and Research Engineering Council]

Daigle:

So, what did you do there? What was your doctorate thesis?

Stinson:

Again, I stayed in— That was solid state physics that I was working on, and so I was working with cryostats. I had liquid helium, so I was working down at liquid helium temperatures. When you pump on that, you can get down to about 1.3 degrees Kelvin using superconducting magnets at those temperatures. So, I was studying the electrical properties of metals, in particular with potassium and lead, and also thermal properties and how these interact in a magnetic field. So, by pumping electricity down, you make heat flow and you’ve got magnetic fields that changes this. It was all very interesting. So that was my thesis, on this electrical and thermal conduction properties of metals at low temperatures.

Daigle:

Was there anybody at the school who had the greatest influence on your future?

Stinson:

Well, I guess probably my supervisor Robin Fletcher. He was probably one of the better experimentalists I’ve ever come across. He’s just very clever and, you know, a complex measurement system, he would sort of say, “Well, you can do this this way,” and he would have a very novel solution. So, I got my name on a couple of his papers because of his cleverness and how you can increase the voltage that you measure a factor of ten without having any actual conduction between them. It was just some pretty clever devices he measured to actually get the information we needed.

Daigle:

All right. That brings us now to other areas. While you were a student, did you ever conduct classes for the college or university?

Stinson:

Well, I was a teaching assistant for a couple of classes during my Ph.D., but I also went across town. There’s a Royal Military College in Kingston, and I spent one summer there running a lab course for the students there, the cadets.

Daigle:

All right. That brings us to other training. First, in military? Were you ever in the military?

Stinson:

No. I have worked with the military subsequently, but no, I was never in the military. It’s not a prerequisite in Canada, so I didn't.

Daigle:

Okay. Any technical, business, or trade school?

Stinson:

No.

Daigle:

How about correspondence courses?

Stinson:

Yes. When I was younger, I did take a one-year course in German. My best friend at the time was of German heritage and he spoke German in his home, so I thought I should try to learn some and I did. I learned a bit. Yes, I did complete the course. The other was as a junior forest ranger, which was some silly thing I heard about. So, I took the course, I got a bunch of badges, and I completed a year of it.

Daigle:

All right. Now that brings us to your professional career. After college, what was your first place of employment?

Stinson:

Well, that was the National Research Council. Actually, before I get into that, I did have a post-doc position lined up back in Vancouver. I was going to work with Rudi Haering. He was looking at lithium batteries at the time. It might have been a good career choice to do a post-doc with him, but I had a young child and I had an opportunity for a permanent position at the National Research Council, so that’s what I took.

Daigle:

What was your first title there?

Stinson:

I started as an assistant research officer, and the topic?

Daigle:

Yeah. What did you do when you were there?

Stinson:

So, it was a little scary at first because I had freedom to choose almost anything. I asked, “Well, what do you want to work on?” It was up to me. But as it turns out, there was a visitor. His name was Dr. Richard Goode (Stanford), and he was visiting Edgar Shaw. He wanted to build some sort of ears to help with hearing, so that got me into thinking about hearing and then modeling of the ear canal. So anyway, that’s what I started doing. I started working in support of that. It just seemed… Well, let’s… You don't understand the ear canal as well as you should. He had some very simple models of the ear canal. It was just a straight tube, but the ear canal is actually bent. You had curvature and it changes cross-sectional area, and these things become very important at high frequencies.

Daigle:

You said you met Shyam Khanna and then you worked with him during these early years.

Stinson:

That came a couple years later.

Daigle:

Okay. You already told us about working with him.

Stinson:

Yeah. So, once I got started and started publishing a couple papers and then giving talks on this, then yeah, Shyam Khanna came up and grabbed me and that sort of furthered my career in that direction.

Daigle:

How long did this last, this area of work?

Stinson:

Probably about ten years or so.

Daigle:

What did you do after that?

Stinson:

Then got into other things. Noise control materials was something that seemed important at the time. I had a student…Well, he was actually a professor at Sherbrooke University, Yvan Champoux, but he wanted to do his Ph.D. He was a professor, but he only had a master’s. So, he arranged to do a Ph.D. with us in our group, but he was with Carleton University. That sounds familiar, probably, to my interviewer.

Daigle:

Yes!

Stinson:

So, I started up working on porous materials and developing models and doing measurements and developing model systems. So, one of the neat things we built was a model porous material. We had some with just straight tubes, some with curved tubes, and then some of the tubes bearing cross-sectional area, and got some really high accurate experiments made on these. These are definitive experiments and people developing new models will return to these measurements to show whether or not their theory is working right.

Daigle:

Didn't you also develop novel measuring techniques, measure properties of porous material?

Stinson:

Yes, in conjunction… Well, in partnership with Gilles Daigle and Yvan Champoux, we developed a device to measure flow resistance in porous materials and also the porosity.

Daigle:

And wasn’t there one other parameter?

Stinson:

There was tortuosity.

Daigle:

Yeah. I think there were three systems we worked on during that time.

Stinson:

Yeah. Tortuosity… I’m not sure that was that successful, so I didn't mention it.

Daigle:

Okay. And after that?

Stinson:

There’s a variety of different things. I guess at that time, NRC was wanting us to get more involved with industry, and so we were looking more at… We had worked with industry all along, but it wasn’t formalized and now it had to get more formalized. So, we started actively looking for collaborations, and one of the ones was telecom, so we worked with a telecom company in Ottawa and several different projects. Actually, there are two telecom companies. Can I mention them? So, we started working, getting familiarity with these companies and with what they wanted, and so that kind of guided our research. We could see, “Here’s what they’ve got. Here’s what they might need in a year,” and that kind of guided our research. One thing at that time also was looking at the Blackberry product. I won't mention the company that makes it. At that time, they didn't have any acoustics. They came to us and said, “We want to put in acoustics,” and so we worked with them and the result is any kind of acoustics came from our efforts — not just me, but the whole lab. I think probably half a dozen of us were all involved in different aspects of the acoustics they would need and what they would have to consider.

Daigle:

What other things? We’re in the ’90s about now, aren’t we?

Stinson:

That would be about the ’90s.

Daigle:

Did you not work on other areas at all?

Stinson:

Yeah. I sort of got into outdoor sound propagation about that time. Gilles Daigle had been involved in that for years. He was then group leader, and so I, with Dave Havelock, started working with him on some of these issues and started attending some of the NATO study groups. Quite a different crowd of people. A different research topic, but actually it wasn’t that hard to go from one to the other because you apply the same skills, and still the wave equation applies throughout, which is kind of nice.

Daigle:

And a microphone is a microphone.

Stinson:

Yeah.

Daigle:

A sound field is a sound field.

Stinson:

Yeah. So that got into sound propagation outdoors. I guess I probably had more of a minor role because Gilles was the guiding light, but a lot of the light work was done by me and by Dave Havelock. Dave built up some very immense measurement systems for 64-microphone arrays. I got involved in meteorology and looking at how different types of turbulence can scatter sound. At that time I also got involved in what’s called the fast PE. It’s a parabolic equation method, but it’s a fast approach. Once you can calculate this thing fast, you can do a lot of interesting things, including looking at, with turbulence flowing, how will you get a signal that changes with time? I had a little movie of that which was quite interesting.

Daigle:

Yeah. Parabolic equation, kind of the knowledge of the sound field as a function of height. Did you not do some experimental work in that area?

Stinson:

I did.

Daigle:

How did you get the sound field as a function of height?

Stinson:

We had a meteorological system and we had anemometers on this very tall, I think it was a 30-foot tower.

Daigle:

10 meters.

Stinson:

So, we had measurement stations at different heights so we can get the velocity and the temperature as a function of height. We also had ground-mounted anemometers as well, to get right down as close to the ground as we could. So, with that knowledge of how the temperature and the sound speed and direction change with height, you can run that in as input into your calculations. You can extend these functions as a function of height using similarity theory, which we started working on at that time. All this, when we started comparing to experimental data, it all fit together very nicely.

Daigle:

That sort of brings us to the turn of the century. What happened after that?

Stinson:

Then our lab got more into the signal processing and use of multiple microphones, and we worked on that for quite a while. That was shortly after that that our group was disbanded, and so I don't think we ever took that work with the multiple microphones as far as we could have. We’re getting working with some government partners, which were more involved with discreet surveillance. We had some initial collaborations and they were very successful, but they never got continued.

Daigle:

I seem to recall you did a bit of work with hearing aids during that time.

Stinson:

Yeah. There are quite a few things that are not all listed here, unfortunately. Yes. Hearing aids, I worked with Gilles on this. One of the problems with hearing aids is that someone using a telephone brings the telephone up close to their ear and they get a ringing due to the hearing aid. There’s a feedback path, and the presence of that scatter increases the hearing… the feedback path. So, we looked at that, both theoretically and experimentally, and we found that we could predict very closely when the system would feedback and at what frequency it would feedback.

Daigle:

Were there any special accomplishments or developments or any particular project that stands out or that you contributed to while you were at NRC?

Stinson:

Well, I think my original work with ear canal models was fairly special. I was awarded a fellowship in the Acoustical Society, and that was what the statement was for, my ear canal work. I’m kind of proud of the Blackberry device because I think we really got a Canadian— Well, we’re Canadians, so helping a Canadian industry was great, and I think getting that, getting them into the next level of development into acoustics was quite an achievement.

Daigle:

Was there anyone at NRC that influenced you or your future?

Stinson:

Oh, yeah. Our group was very much enmeshed with the ASA and also very competent scientists. So Edgar Shaw, who I worked with first, then Tony Embleton and Gilles Daigle and probably Dave Havelock as well, those are the scientists I worked with, and they’re all very good. Just working with them was always exciting and fun. But also technicians. We had some of the better technicians, I think, around. In particular, there was Allen Hellard, who I worked with, but also Marina Vaillancourt, who worked on some of the projects with me. They all were down-to-earth. Actually, they kept us grounded. You know, we’d go out and golf with them later, so I think that was also— That made a big impression on me that you don't just focus on the science, but also there’s real life as well. They were all very competent as well as technicians.

Daigle:

So how long did you stay at NRC in total?

Stinson:

32 years.

Daigle:

What year did you leave?

Stinson:

That was in 2009.

Daigle:

What was your title when you left?

Stinson:

I was Principal Research Officer.

Daigle:

Why did you leave?

Stinson:

I didn't really want to leave, but our group was discontinued. At that time, from higher up above NRC, there was a decision that some cuts had to be made, and from some sort of matrix they decided that our Acoustics and Signal Processing Group would be discontinued. I’ve learned subsequently that maybe they expected us to spin off and develop our own company out of that, but I hadn't actually heard that at the time.

Daigle:

So then where did you go? What did you do?

Stinson:

Well, I was happy to take early retirement; then I had a pension. What happened is a lot of companies that we had been working with said, “Well, who do we deal with now?” and so, “Well, I guess I could still work with you.” But then we had to clear it with NRC because you don't want to… That was one of the conditions of our pensions. You can't start working on something that they would do otherwise. But they weren't going to work on it, so all was well with… They just said, “Well, why don't you just make your own company?” And so, Gilles Daigle and I formed our own company to take on some of these projects and others that came along and called that MG Acoustics. We had space. There was an incubator facility at the National Research Council, so we got space there. So, in a way we were a spinoff from NRC. We didn't take it to a big level because neither of us were interested in full-time or more than full-time commitment. So, I think it worked very well in that regard.

Daigle:

So, this was in 2009.

Stinson:

2009, in the fall, we became a company.

Daigle:

What was your title in the company?

Stinson:

Oh, I was chief operations officer.

Daigle:

Wow. Very impressive.

Stinson:

The bank wanted a title, so…

Daigle:

The bank wanted a title. Tell us what MG Acoustics did over the years. What type of projects did they work on?

Stinson:

We would take on almost anything, really, as long as there was something interesting in it. So, one of the big ones was one of the telecommunication companies in Ottawa, they had lost a lot of the expertise in acoustics, and so they were looking for help. So, we would then help them on occasion, and we ended up getting sort of a long-term service contract with them. Every so often they would have a bigger project where we’d actually have to really— what was really a research project for them. One of the big outcomes was a video conference device that incorporated 16 microphones and did very complex beam-forming. It wouldn't have worked without our contribution. We calculated how the sound would go over this and how you’d have to weight the microphones to steer beams. It was a really successful device, and I think it got lost because they were focused more on bells and whistles and their marketing team just couldn't match some of the other competitors.

Daigle:

But I think it’s still on the market.

Stinson:

It’s still on the market, yes, but it’s not as big a market share as they were hoping for. So, that was one kind of research. We also looked at the wind turbine noise. Health Canada had a study and they wanted some experts on outdoor sound propagation. So, they came to Gilles Daigle, and I tagged along. We looked at data that was generated from several wind turbines in Prince Edward Island, did the analysis, and did calculations and showed that the measurements and the predictions based on met data that we got worked very well. So, we could predict the propagation of infrasound to distances of 10km with very good accuracy. That was all part of this Health Canada study. That was just a small part. They also did surveys of annoyance and a lot of other things. So, it’s a groundbreaking study that they did and it’s kind of nice that we were part of that.

Daigle:

Any other projects come to mind?

Stinson:

Yeah, lots. There was a company from Florida that was interested in hearing protection by inflating balloons and the like in ear canals. They really knew nothing about acoustics; they just had this idea. But we were able to set up a measurement device to measure how these things would perform. We had like a model ear canal essentially, and we gave them predictions. We made measurements on some of the devices they sent up, and I think they were a happy company. More recently, in looking at the audibility of aircraft as they approach people, sort of a joint audibility and visibility study. It was kind of interesting that sometimes you see an aircraft first before you hear it because other times you hear it before you see it. Both are probably equally important. So, looking at that, we’re involved with the National Research Council on this project. We help with the modeling. They really don't know too much about how to model, but we have the tools to… again, this is MG Acoustics. So, we can predict what spectrum you should be receiving. We can measure it and we can find that… again, we’ve got an agreement, which means that we’re doing a good job both on the experiment and the theory.

Daigle:

All right. Any other little small projects you want to mention?

Stinson:

Worked on the application of graphene in various acoustical devices such as loudspeakers or microphones. It has a potential and so we worked with a company on sort of developing what they might do. They were interested in proceeding further.

Daigle:

If you had sort of a pet project during that ten years of MG Acoustics, which one would stand out in the ones you described?

Stinson:

Well, I think the one with the telecom company with the video conference device—that was probably my proudest achievement because we made something work and it was really very complicated to make it work.

Daigle:

Okay. I guess how long did you stay there? You said it was formed in 2009. Is MG Acoustics still active?

Stinson:

We are still going on. We keep talking about sort of letting it run out and then something interesting comes along and we decide to go a bit longer. So, I don't know how much longer. It could be another year, maybe another month, maybe another two years. I don't know.

Daigle:

All right. So, I guess that brings us to publications. Did you ever write a book or have something published?

Stinson:

No books. I’ve written four book chapters on different things.

Daigle:

Can you give us some titles of your book chapters?

Stinson:

So, I was an editor for three different meetings for the proceedings that came out. There was an ICA meeting in 1986 that was held in Toronto. There’s an Inter-Noise meeting in 1992, and Gilles and I were editors for the proceedings of that. Dave Havelock and I were editors for the Proceedings of the Sixth International Symposium on Long-Range Sound Propagation and that was in 1994. There was also a chapter in the 75th anniversary book of the Acoustical Society. That was in 2004 and I contributed the chapter on noise.

Daigle:

Anything else you’d like to add on publications?

Stinson:

Well, yeah. There’s a bunch of papers. So, some of the titles? Should I go through them?

Daigle:

Sure.

Stinson:

There is “The specification of the geometry of the human ear canal for the prediction of sound pressure level.” This was where I account for both the curvature and the cross-sectional area variations of an ear canal, which took the theory way beyond whatever had been done in the past. “Propagation of plane sound waves in narrow and wide circular tubes, and generalization to uniform tubes of arbitrary cross-section.” This is key for porous materials, sort of the basic how the thermal and viscous boundary layers affect the propagation. There was “Effect of handset proximity on hearing and hearing aid feedback.” So, there are some of the titles I think are particularly relevant for me.

Daigle:

All right. So, at last, now getting into some more personal information. Let’s start with your family. What is your present marital status?

Stinson:

I am married still.

Daigle:

What is the name of your wife?

Stinson:

Susan.

Daigle:

Maiden name?

Stinson:

Thompson.

Daigle:

What is her occupation?

Stinson:

She was a registered nurse. She worked, for the last part of her career, dealing with psychiatry of adolescents. Then she retired and now she’s…

Daigle:

Retired.

Stinson:

Retired. Homemaker.

Daigle:

When and where did you meet your spouse?

Stinson:

I met her at Simon Fraser University. There was a dance and we were dancing. She is one of the few people I danced with that actually smiled at me, so I went from there.

Daigle:

[Laughs] When and where did you get married?

Stinson:

We got married at a chapel in Richmond, which is just a suburb of Vancouver, and that was 1975.

Daigle:

Do you have any children?

Stinson:

I have four children and two grandchildren now.

Daigle:

Okay, and their names?

Stinson:

Kevin, Cheryl, Valerie, and Christopher. Those are in order of age. The grandchildren are Nora and Cala.

Daigle:

Is there anything special that you would like to say about any of them?

Stinson:

Not really. I’m just proud of all of them. They’ve all done well. They’ve all had their struggles early and they’ve come through and they’re all doing very well with their lives.

Daigle:

Okay. Now in terms of your personal interests, what is your favorite form of entertainment?

Stinson:

My favorite has always been watching my kids do things. Take them to a sports activity, their basketball game, and they play; watching them perform, and it doesn't have to be sports. Sometimes also Chris was in a play and he had this lead role. All these things just watching kids, that’s always been my favorite. Beyond that, sports on TV. I don't watch too much, more when there’s a final event, the Super Bowl or a Grey Cup game in Canada. Probably NCAA basketball might have been the one sport I’ve watched the most over the years.

Daigle:

You mentioned science fiction earlier on.

Stinson:

I did. Well, yeah. When it comes to books, science fiction I’ve read. I still read science fiction. I don't read too much other stuff.

Daigle:

As a form of entertainment, yeah.

Stinson:

But my favorite author back when was Isaac Asimov, who wrote the Foundation trilogy. That was sort of a remarkable series of books.

Daigle:

I agree. I also read the trilogy by Asimov. That was one of my favorites. How about do you watch TV?

Stinson:

I watch TV sometimes.

Daigle:

What do you watch? Movies?

Stinson:

I watch what my wife watches mostly. She’s got certain shows she watches, and she kind of watches to fall asleep and so I’m trying to get to sleep and I end up hearing it and I get interested and so I watch some. “The Good Doctor” is a current show that I like. It’s about a doctor who’s autistic.

Daigle:

Any particular movie star or movie that stands out?

Stinson:

I guess remember back to the science fiction themes of “Star Trek” and Star Wars. Those are the kind of movies I used to like, although I haven't seen the more recent ones.

Daigle:

What in terms of music? Singers and style of music?

Stinson:

Favorite singer… When I was a teenager, Petula Clark was my favorite. She’s the one that sang “Downtown” and “My Love,” and I just liked the songs she sang and somehow that was my… I had her albums up on my wall and stuff. But I guess Beatles after that. It sort of tapered off as I’ve gotten older.

Daigle:

Do you still listen to…?

Stinson:

I still like hearing the oldies, so I’ve got a bunch of those on memory sticks and I’ll play those in the car.

Daigle:

Okay. You’ve already mentioned sports teams and stuff. Is there anything you want to add to that?

Stinson:

I guess I’ve been a fan of Dallas Mavericks for a while. They’ve got some players there that I like, but that’s about all.

Daigle:

How about art, artists?

Stinson:

I like the artists that paint realistically. There are some I saw in a gallery in London looking at large trees and just the detail, it looked so realistic. To me, that takes spectacular skill. That’s always been my favorite art.

Daigle:

Is there a favorite quote?

Stinson:

I had one that I had on my desk for years. I’m not even sure what it means. It’s “A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.”

Daigle:

Okay! [Laughing]

Stinson:

It’s a quote from Ralph Waldo Emerson, and I guess it means trying to think of things in the same way all the time and the way everyone else thinks is not the best way to go. That’s kind of foolish. You know, if you're really… You should be thinking on your own and willing to change.

Daigle:

I’m glad you explained it to me! [Laughs] What are your hobbies today?

Stinson:

I do curling. That’s very popular in Canada. I’ve done that now for about nine years. Oddly enough, that’s ever since NRC shut down my operation. The curling, it’s a fun sport and I enjoy it and my wife enjoys it as well. Golf, I’ve done that for years. It’s sort of dwindled down to just a couple games a year and I keep hoping to increase it. I’m always looking for someone to go out and play with, but he seems to have less initiative than I do. We’ll do it eventually.

Daigle:

What are your future plans?

Stinson:

I’d like to do a bit more traveling. Still doing some in regard to my service. I serve on the ICA as a secretary general.

Daigle:

The International Commission on Acoustics.

Stinson:

Yeah. So, I’ve got a bit more travel associated with that, but then after that, then I’ll be free to just travel where I feel like going and see where that takes me.

Daigle:

Okay. Other than traveling, is there anything else?

Stinson:

I guess the other thing is my property. We recently moved out of town from Ottawa. We have four acres and I’m trying to build trails through our property so the dogs can run loose and have somewhere to go. That’s a lot of work, and so that’s going to keep me busy for… Heavy-duty work. It’s actually good for me. It feels…

Daigle:

And there’s always something to do around the house and the property. It never ends.

Stinson:

Yeah. When you’re out in the country, there’s more.

Daigle:

[Laughing] There’s more, right. Well, that sort of nearly brings us the end. Is there anything else you would like to add?

Stinson:

I guess to summarize, I’ve had what I think is a very successful career. I’ve enjoyed it. I’ve had fun. There have been some bad things that have happened over the years, but you know, always come out. Things seem maybe this is the way it should have gone. I’ve worked with some great people, and I guess that’s about it.

Daigle:

Well, that brings us to the end of your interview. Thank you very much for the interesting anecdotes and comments over the years.

[End of interview]