George "Pinky" Nelson

DeVorkin:

Now, you have already, in your interview and elsewhere, talked about how you were in one of the groups. How did you originally apply, and what was the application like before you became a semifinalist? I take it you were one of the 150 semifinalists.

Nelson:

Yes. I actually was working at the University of Göttingen. My advisor, Erika Böhm-Vitense and her husband, Karl-Heinz Böhm, were working there, and I was just finishing up my dissertation, so I had worked for a while before that in Utrecht and then went over and just, you know, for adventure, and they supported me on one of their grants for six months in Germany.

DeVorkin:

What was your thesis?

Nelson:

I did theoretical models of convection in the surface layers of the Sun, and then I applied it to other stars. So, solving the hydrodynamic equations and Navier Stokes equations and the radiative transfer equations at the same time.

DeVorkin:

Right. So, that was highly theoretical.

Nelson:

Yes. Right.

DeVorkin:

In your thesis or in your work — and I apologize; I should have gone on to the astronomy data system and checked out your publications.

Nelson:

[laughs] It’s a long time ago.

DeVorkin:

Yes. Well, I’m just curious whether you incorporated observations with it.

Nelson:

I did. Yes.

DeVorkin:

You did test against observations.

Nelson:

Of course. [laughs]

DeVorkin:

Were any of those observations, let’s say, space-borne? I mean, what was the year?

Nelson:

No, this was in the mid-’70s, so there weren’t many solar observations at that point anyway. I needed high-resolution stuff, because I was computing the size distribution of granules and the contrast at various wavelengths and things like that.

DeVorkin:

Martin Schwarzschild with Stratoscope II was trying to determine whether they were indeed convection cells. Was that something you were interested in, too?

Nelson:

Yes. Well, I assumed they were convection cells. I wrote a paper with Jacques Beckers where we used my model to compute the average line shift, because the bright lines are going up, and the dark lines are going down, so you get a net negative velocity towards you, and compared that to the gravitational redshift. It turns out they just about cancel out. [Beckers, J. M.; Nelson, G. D. Some comments on the limb shift of solar lines. II: The effect of granular motions. Solar Physics, Volume 58, Issue 2, pp.243-261]

DeVorkin:

Aha.

Nelson:

So, at the center of the Sun, it’s really hard to measure the gravitational redshift. You have to go to the limb to get above the granules.

DeVorkin:

I’m bringing it up, because I’m wondering if it made you think in terms of space observations to improve your theory.

Nelson:

Yes. I certainly — it would have been great to get — you wouldn’t even need a very big telescope in space. You know, you’d need half an arcsecond resolution or something. They have spectacular observations now. But you could have done some really good work, because without the seeing on the ground, you could get high resolution, and you could pinpoint what was going up and what was going down.

DeVorkin:

Yes. Was Skylab of any interest to you?

Nelson:

Yes. Skylab was actually great. [laughs] But it came a little later. It came in ’75. Right?

DeVorkin:

Right. Yes, about that time. But what I’m looking for is maybe a correlation with George [Carruthers], because George, of course, had been applying constantly for Apollo-era missions — the extension package, putting things on…

Nelson:

Right.

DeVorkin:

…as payloads and stuff like that, and then Skylab. And I’m just curious as to whether any of that interest stimulated his interest in being an astronaut. So, I’m wondering if it did [interest] you.

Nelson:

Sure. I mean, just my basic interest in space science stimulated it, but also just my interest in flying and [that sort of] stuff.

DeVorkin:

Let’s see. This was called “Group 8”…

Nelson:

Right.

DeVorkin:

…that was the announcement that opened it all up. You were a flier, right?

Nelson:

I had a private license. Yes, I learned to fly when I was at Harvey Mudd.

DeVorkin:

Aha. Yes, when you were a student. And would that have made you competitive alone, without the expanded criteria for astronauts with Group 8?

Nelson:

Oh, no. The flying had a little to do with it probably, but not a lot. I think Ed Gibson, who had just a couple years ago come back from Skylab and had really engaged in the solar physics part, was really interested in the research I was doing, and that helped a lot. He was on the selection committee.

DeVorkin:

Oh, on the astronaut selection committee?

Nelson:

Right. Yes.

DeVorkin:

Oh, I see. And did he interview you?

Nelson:

Yes.

DeVorkin:

Well, let’s talk a little bit about that. You applied —the announcement of opportunity came out.

Nelson:

Right.

DeVorkin:

And that was like ’77, or something like that. And then you must have applied. There were thousands of applications.

Nelson:

Right.

DeVorkin:

What kind of response did you get? Can you remember?

Nelson:

Well, I actually applied from Germany on this old German manual typewriter, so my application wasn’t beautiful. [laughs] I sent away, got an application, and I mailed that in. That must have been in the fall of — maybe the late spring or summer of ’77.

DeVorkin:

Yes.

Nelson:

And then I came back. We came back in like August of ’77 or somewhere around there, and went right from Göttingen back to Sacramento Peak.

DeVorkin:

Oh, wow.

Nelson:

So, I continued doing my thesis work there. I was working with some of the folks like Jacques Beckers, and he was there then, and a guy named Steve Mussmann.

DeVorkin:

Yup. Know the name.

Nelson:

I worked with [them]. So, we were at Sac Peak from maybe August to the end of October, or something like that, and just finishing up some work I was doing there. At that point, just before we were going to leave to come back to Seattle, I got a call from Houston wanting me to come down for the interview. And that was the first I had heard. I mean, there were a lot of rumors flying around, and Pete Worden was at Sacramento Peak at the same time, and he had applied.

DeVorkin:

Yup.

Nelson:

[laughs] And I remember Pete and I watched one of the approach and landing tests together at Sac Peak.

DeVorkin:

Oh, boy. [laughs]

Nelson:

Yes.. This was in New Mexico up above Las Cruces. So, we were up on the mountain, and I was just finishing up as a graduate student at the time, so my wife and kids and I all lived in this old trailer up in the [laughs] — at Sac Peak.

DeVorkin:

That’s great. When did you get married?

Nelson:

Just before I graduated from college, undergraduate college.

DeVorkin:

Oh, okay. So, you were really well established. Now, deciding to become an astronaut, applying for it, did you know — and did your wife and family have any sense of what that was going to commit you to?

Nelson:

Oh, I think so. That’s one of the few things my wife probably couldn’t have talked me out of. [laughs]

DeVorkin:

[laughs] What does she do?

Nelson:

Well, at that time, she was working as a school psychologist.

DeVorkin:

Oh, okay. And how old were your kids?

Nelson:

They were five and two, I guess.

DeVorkin:

Really young. Wow.

Nelson:

Yes.

DeVorkin:

This is helping me get a sense of making decisions, because George applied, and he made it to the semifinalists. Do you have any idea what it meant to become a semifinalist? How did you have to stand out from the rest?

Nelson:

Yes, it’s very mysterious how that works.

DeVorkin:

[laughs] Can I quote you?

Nelson:

Sure. And I was on the selection board once, so I went through the process from the other side. You know, my impression was that hiring astronauts wasn’t a job of finding the few pearls who are out there in the country. It was choosing among lots of incredibly talented and qualified folks.

DeVorkin:

Yes.

Nelson:

So, you could hardly go wrong. [laughs]

DeVorkin:

In your application, did they ask for references?

Nelson:

Yes. Yes. They asked for references, and before the interviews, before we went down to Houston for the interviews that George participated in, they did a full background check. The FBI did a background check on us.

DeVorkin:

Ah, okay. So, that would have been the case for George as well.

Nelson:

Sure. Yes.

DeVorkin:

Yes. It’s very unfortunate. I’ve not been able to get too many of his papers. The family has preserved sporadically, and the Naval Research Lab, everything’s closed, you know, during the pandemic and everything.

Nelson:

Oh, yes.

DeVorkin:

Yes. So, I’m trying to reconstruct this the best I can. Now, I don’t have his application. I don’t have the references, and I don’t have the deliberation. So, the best I can do at this point is sort of say: well, what were your experiences? You were notified, and then what?

Nelson:

Yes. So, you were invited down to Houston for a week of interviews and physicals and stuff like that. And I actually should have been in Group 7. I put them off a week, because that week, I was driving from New Mexico back to Seattle. So, I got back to Seattle, then flew down to Houston. So, it was just chance that I was in that group with — I mean, there were at least four astronomers. I think there were more. There was — was Rich Terrile in that group, maybe? Was he one of the folks?

DeVorkin:

I don’t have the list in front of me.

Nelson:

Yes. But it was at least Jeff Hoffman and Sally Ride and me and George. We were all astronomers.

DeVorkin:

Right. Did you know George before then?

Nelson:

I knew of him, yes.

DeVorkin:

Okay.

Nelson:

[laughs] We were all the young folks, me and Sally especially. And Jeff, he was a little more established. We’re kind of thinking, you know: how can we compete [laughs] against somebody like this?

DeVorkin:

So George, by then, was 37.

Nelson:

Yes, so he was a little old. They did hire a couple of 38, 39-year-old pilots .

DeVorkin:

Yes. But he was one of the oldest of the 150 semifinalists…

Nelson:

Right. Right.

DeVorkin:

What contact did you have with him there? How did you meet him?

Nelson:

Well, we all kind of hung out together. There were 20 of us.

DeVorkin:

Right.

Nelson:

And it was about half test pilots and half scientists and engineers.

DeVorkin:

Right.

Nelson:

And so we kind of hung out together when we weren’t being poked and prodded, or at meals and things like that. So, the astronomers kind of gravitated to each other. It was more in our comfort zone. [laughs]

DeVorkin:

Do you remember specifically George socializing with you?

Nelson:

Yes. Yes. Yes.

DeVorkin:

And what were your impressions of him? Did any of you talk about why do you want to be an astronaut?

Nelson:

Well, I think we all knew we wanted to be [laughs] astronauts by then.

DeVorkin:

Okay. And this was a long time ago. [laughs]

Nelson:

Yes. I think it was fairly obvious from George that his main interest was — well, one of his big interests was his own work — you know, was the ability to do his astronomy, which wasn’t — I don’t think — such a positive thing, because you were kind of expected to just do what you were told. Right? To be whatever the mission was. And the odds of being able to do your own work on a mission were pretty small.

DeVorkin:

Well, there were mission specialists; there were payload specialists.

Nelson:

Yes.

DeVorkin:

I know that Karl Henize had some specific interests.

Nelson:

Right. And there were no payload specialists at that time. We were just being hired as mission specialists.

DeVorkin:

Ah, okay. That’s important.

Nelson:

Yes. And you know, one of the things in retrospect — I didn’t think about it or know about it at the time — but I know that George and Karl worked together at some point.

DeVorkin:

Oh, yes.

Nelson:

And interviewing George might have been a nod to Karl. Henize might have put in a good word for him.

DeVorkin:

Very interesting. Yes, because they were both very interested in wide-field ultraviolet surveys.

Nelson:

Right. Right.

DeVorkin:

And they collaborated to a certain extent on several proposals that got pushed around every way you can imagine. So what kind of specific tests — the physical tests — and were there psychological tests?

Nelson:

Yes. It was kind of all of the above. I’ve never had anything like that before or since, in terms of physical evaluations. So, they did all your standard physicals you could think of, including colonoscopies and stuff like that. [laughs] And then they put you on this machine, and they measured your range of motion in all your limbs and the strength of your muscles. And you did a stress test on a treadmill. And they put you in one of the three-foot-diameter rescue spheres and made you sit in there for a while in the dark.

DeVorkin:

Orientation?

Nelson:

Yes, just to see if you were claustrophobic, I think. And there were two different interviews with two different psychiatrists.

DeVorkin:

Two different ones?

Nelson:

Yes.

DeVorkin:

Any idea how they differed, or they were just two different people?

Nelson:

It was kind of the “good cop, bad cop” scheme.

DeVorkin:

Oh, were they together?

Nelson:

No, no.

DeVorkin:

Oh, okay. [laughs]

Nelson:

So, your first one was kind of a very general psychiatric screening — not that I know what that is, but having a wife who’s a psychologist, that’s what she said it was. You know, it’s “Do you love your mother and hate your father?” kind of stuff. [laughs] And the other was more kind of the typical neurological exam. You know, count back from 100 by sevens, and repeat this string of numbers, and that sort of thing, just to see how you stood up under — I actually made a mistake counting backwards [laughs] from sevens.

DeVorkin:

Do you remember the order of the exams? What came first? What came later?

Nelson:

I think everyone’s was a little different, because they had to rotate these 20 people through all the different stages.

DeVorkin:

I contacted a number of people at JSC about this, and they’ve been very helpful, but they said: well, we really can’t release the results. But that apparently, George passed the first level of medical, but there was something in the second level.

Nelson:

Oh, yes. Yes, I don’t know. The one thing that screened out a lot of folks was vision.

DeVorkin:

Oh.

Nelson:

I think they were requiring 20/100 at that point, correctable to 20/20.

DeVorkin:

Yes, I don’t think George wore glasses.

Nelson:

Yes, and I don’t remember him wearing glasses. I’m not sure there are any other really common physical things that people didn’t pass. You had to meet all the height and weight requirements in that before they would interview you.

DeVorkin:

Oh, sure.

Nelson:

And everybody, I think, was in pretty good shape at that point.

DeVorkin:

And George was especially physically fit for most of his life.

Nelson:

Yes.

DeVorkin:

Yes. Well, did you know while you were there that you’d been selected?

Nelson:

No. I forget when we interviewed. It was in October, or something like that.

DeVorkin:

Yes. October.

Nelson:

And it wasn’t until the middle of January that they made the announcements of who was selected. And there weren’t even good rumors that I could tell. Peter was my source. He kept his ear to the ground. Pete Worden. But I didn’t. Actually, I had gotten back from Sac Peak, you know, right before that in October, and the first week of November, John Castor called me up from the University of Colorado and said, “I have a postdoc I want to give you if you can finish your dissertation by the end of the year.” [laughs]

DeVorkin:

[laughs] Oh, boy.

Nelson:

And I hadn’t written a word yet, and I said, “No problem.” [laughs] So, I kind of went underground for the month of November-December, and Erika let me. She said, “Okay, write it up.” So, I managed to get my dissertation done early in January.

DeVorkin:

Oh, wow. That’s great. What about your wife? How did she feel when you heard that you were going to be an astronaut?

Nelson:

Well, it was pretty exciting. I think she had mixed feelings. You know, she was expecting to be married to a research astronomer and have kind of an academic life. [laughs] But she thought it would be exciting, I think. Neither of us really knew what to expect.

DeVorkin:

[laughs] Yes. Right. George was married at that time. So, I’ve found no reaction from the family or anything. People at NRL weren’t aware of it, at least the ones who are still alive. So, I’m just looking for hints. Do you remember any conversations with him at all?

Nelson:

Not specifically.

DeVorkin:

Yes. Because in your interview, you talked about going out and playing baseball.

Nelson:

Yes.

DeVorkin:

And that socializing seemed to be very important.

Nelson:

Yes. You know, my impression, and having served on a selection board like I said, you’re really trying to choose among people who are all overqualified, basically.

DeVorkin:

Yes. But how important is social?

Nelson:

Yes. So, I think the decisions really came down to choosing the people who they thought they could work with the best. It’s kind of a self-replicating organization. Right?

DeVorkin:

Yes.

Nelson:

So, they chose people like themselves.

DeVorkin:

Yes. Okay. That’s important, because George was extremely — you might say — quiet.

Nelson:

Yes.

DeVorkin:

And he kept to himself. He was always friendly, if you approached him on things, but if you didn’t approach him personally, he would just sit.

Nelson:

[laughs] Yes.

DeVorkin:

A lot of people have confirmed that in many, many different ways.

Nelson:

Yes. And I think —that is a characteristic of a number of the astronauts — I’m a very strong introvert, too.

DeVorkin:

Aha.

Nelson:

I don’t go out and — you know, I didn’t party. On Friday nights, the pilots would be out at the bars, and Sally Ride and Steve Hawley and I would — and Susie would play Bridge. [laughs]

DeVorkin:

Was George ever in that?

Nelson:

No, this was after we were in the office — in the astronaut office.

DeVorkin:

Okay. Did you remember any racial discrimination?

Nelson:

No, not at all. I mean, I’m sure Texas at that time was full of it, but I don’t think — I think the selection process was run really fairly.

DeVorkin:

Yes. Because Bolton and —

Nelson:

Yes, Guy Bluford, Fred Gregory and Ron McNair were in our group. Yes. And I think they were treated — you know, I think the word came down from Washington that this was going to be a diverse group.

DeVorkin:

Yes. Right.

Nelson:

And it turned out, you know, that all of those folks were incredibly qualified and stood out. You know, the women and the minorities had to be better, actually. [laughs]

DeVorkin:

Yes.

Nelson:

And they were.

DeVorkin:

Do you know if there were any Black candidates, who were not chosen?

Nelson:

That weren’t selected?

DeVorkin:

Yes. Like, George was not selected.

Nelson:

Yes. I’m sure there were, but I can’t tell you any of them.

DeVorkin:

Okay, so he wasn’t — yes. Yes. Okay.

Nelson:

I don’t think it’s a secret who was interviewed. You should be able to find out who was in — who were the 120 folks they interviewed.

DeVorkin:

Oh, yes. Yes, I have that list.

Nelson:

Yes.

DeVorkin:

I have that list, but by name only.

Nelson:

Oh, okay.

DeVorkin:

Not with any details.

Nelson:

Gee, and I just wouldn’t know. I had the group of 20. I think George might have been the only African-American in that group.

DeVorkin:

Okay. That’s important to know.

Nelson:

But I could be wrong. I don’t remember exactly.

DeVorkin:

Yes. But as far as you know, he blended in. He was comfortable. He didn’t stand out.

Nelson:

Yes. Yes.

DeVorkin:

Okay, that’s good. Okay.

Nelson:

And they did a very good job during the interviews of interacting with everyone, both professionally and socially. Because that was all part of the interview. You were being evaluated the whole time, right, whether you were in a real test or not.

DeVorkin:

Yes. Exactly. So, unless I find out more from actual documentation someday — although the publisher wants the book [laughs] soon.

Nelson:

Yes. Right.

DeVorkin:

We were trying to hit the 50th anniversary of Apollo 16. We probably won’t, but we’re still trying. But I could say that he was very quiet, always very quiet.

Nelson:

Yes.

DeVorkin:

And can I say something like that may have had something to do with his not being selected?

Nelson:

I don’t think so. My impression — and this is purely in retrospect; it doesn’t have anything to do with how I felt at the time, because I can’t remember — is that he might have been knocked down a little bit because of his strong interest in his own work, in his own experience.

DeVorkin:

Okay. Because there’s no question [laughs] that he was completely — his life was in the laboratory.

Nelson:

Right. I’m going to look up something here, because I might have another lead for you. I’ll do it on my phone. At the University of Arizona…

DeVorkin:

Yes.

Nelson:

…there is an astronomer, whose name I’m going to try to find.

DeVorkin:

Sure.

Nelson:

Because I did — he was also in that group, and he — I did the online graduation for the department [laughs] this spring, or last spring, I guess it was. Anyway, they had 26 astronomy majors, but —

DeVorkin:

Oh.

Nelson:

Undergraduate majors. And I’m blanking on his name, not because I don’t know him, but because I’m old. [laughs]

DeVorkin:

[laughs] You’re what, 70?

Nelson:

Yes.

DeVorkin:

I’ve got you by seven years. [laughs]

Nelson:

Alright. Astronomy.

DeVorkin:

This is an astronomer at the University of Arizona now?

Nelson:

Yes.

DeVorkin:

And he was in the group as well?

Nelson:

Yes, I think so. So, I’ve got to find the faculty here.

Nelson:

I’ve got the list here, I think. I mean, it’s quite a faculty. Roger Angel.

DeVorkin:

Oh, yes.

Nelson:

And Chris Impey, and some good folks. A lot of them.

DeVorkin:

It’s a big department.

Nelson:

Yes. Oh, Kennicutt is on their faculty. I didn’t know that. Rob and I were grad students together. Don McCarthy.

DeVorkin:

Don McCarthy. Now, why do you direct me to him?

Nelson:

Because he also interviewed.

DeVorkin:

Oh.

Nelson:

He might have been in the same group. I’m not sure.

DeVorkin:

Okay. I’ve asked Kathy Sullivan.

Nelson:

Yes. She wouldn’t remember anything. It wouldn’t keep her from telling you something, but she wouldn’t remember anything. [laughs]

DeVorkin:

That’s quite right. Yes. Kathy was in residence at the museum for one of our fellowships, and she was terrific, but her life has been so busy. [laughs]

Nelson:

Yes. She’s an amazing person. I love Kathy.

DeVorkin:

Yes. So, Don McCarthy. Okay. Here, I’ve got one here. Here we go. His initial contact to me. He says, “You may not remember me, but we were both finalists in one of the Shuttle selection groups at NASA.” So yes, he was in the same group.

DeVorkin:

Yup. Okay. I will contact him. Can I use your name?

Nelson:

[laughs] Yes. Tell him it’s my fault. Yes.

DeVorkin:

[laughs] Okay. Well, okay. I really appreciate it. Anything else that you think might be helpful?

Nelson:

No. I wish I could have been more helpful.

DeVorkin:

You have been. [laughs]

Nelson:

[laughs] My impression was that it didn’t break George’s heart not to be selected.

DeVorkin:

Ah.

Nelson:

That he had a really strong career going anyway and was happy doing that.

DeVorkin:

Yes. That sounds right. I mean, you didn’t see him afterwards, did you?

Nelson:

I may have run into him a couple of times.

DeVorkin:

Okay. That’s very, very helpful, because yes, I was surprised. He was in the middle of so many projects.

Nelson:

Yes.

DeVorkin:

And then he took this. So, okay. Well, thank you so much.

Nelson:

Yes. It’s too bad Karl Henize isn’t around. You could have verified that Karl may have bugged him to apply.

DeVorkin:

Yes. I’ve been wondering about that. I found that he left papers, I think at the University of Texas, and I’m still trying to find somebody who can help me down there, who possibly can find something.

DeVorkin:

Okay. Well, I can’t help noticing your guitar.

Nelson:

Oh, yes.

DeVorkin:

So, you still play. That’s good.

Nelson:

I still play. Actually, once I retired, I decided I’d been playing for 50 years with no noticeable improvement, so I started taking lessons.

DeVorkin:

[laughs] Yes, yes. Well, my arthritis is so bad —

Nelson:

Yes, mine’s getting that way. I’ve got it in my thumbs. I play on a nylon-string now too. Actually, when I retired, I bought a really nice Taylor and I play bass in an astronaut rock ‘n roll band.

DeVorkin:

Are you kidding? What is that?

Nelson:

It’s called “Max Q.”

DeVorkin:

Yes.

Nelson:

It’s me and — well, the originals, we still play occasionally. It’s me and Hoot Gibson and Brewster Shaw and Steve Hawley and Jim Wetherbee. [See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Q_(astronaut_band) ]

DeVorkin:

Are there any recordings or videos?

Nelson:

[laughs] Well, we were going to play last spring, a year ago, in Orlando. Bill Nelson hooked us up, you know, because he flew with — actually, Steve and Hoot and I all just coincidentally flew on the same flight with Bill Nelson. And so, Bill hooked us up to come down and play with the Orlando Philharmonic. Which had to be — so now, we’re booked for next April, early next April, which is going to be one of the most embarrassing moments in our lives, I think.

DeVorkin:

Oh, but it’ll be fantastic. It’ll be fantastic.

Nelson:

So, we’re still playing. We played the summer before last in Phoenix. Tucson? No, Phoenix? Tucson, at the Space Fest. Some guy runs a Space Fest, and all these space groupies come down and trade things. And there may be some footage of that.

DeVorkin:

Space Fest. Do you know who organizes that?

Nelson:

It’s a private thing. Somebody in Tucson.

DeVorkin:

Okay. I’ll let some of my friends know that. That would be just too good. Too good. Maybe the museum can invite you guys to come and play.

Nelson:

Yes. So, the guy who organizes, his name is Al Hallonquist.

DeVorkin:

Yes. Thank you so much. You’ve been very helpful. And play that guitar. And I’m delighted to meet you.

Nelson:

Yes. You too.

DeVorkin:

Okay. Bye bye.

Nelson:

Alright. Take care.

DeVorkin:

Yes. You too.

[END]